The death of Catholic Ireland, greatly exaggerated?

[scolairebocht]

Time and again in this country I get assured that the final death of Catholic Ireland is just around the corner. A country, unique in the world in surviving as Catholic in a Protestant state, is supposed to pack up its tent and die any day now, according to the received wisdom of the elites of this country.

But a few interesting points might be made on this.

A while ago the government introduced a scheme, which was very highly promoted and aggressively championed by such as Aodhán Ó'Riordán TD, whereby the schools of management of Irish Catholic schools can hold a vote to change ownership away from the Catholic Church (whose congregation had built and financed the schools originally). Despite the massive promotion it turned out to be a complete flop, with the vast majority of schools wishing to stay under Catholic patronage (https://www.thejournal.ie/catholic-church-in-schools-ireland-6353429-Apr2024/).

Starting in Poland a short time ago, a movement has been created to foster the praying of public Rosaries around the world and not least in Ireland. Sometimes with just Men's Rosaries (but not always), and generally on the first Saturday of the month, they have ballooned to the extent that on the 11th of May last, 2024, it is said that 563 such Rosary rallies were held across Ireland, encompassing some 10,000 or so people. (https://www.isfcc.org/over-10000-participate-in-historic-public-square-rosary-crusade-in-ireland/)

These are generally held in the public square of the various towns around the place but last year they ('they' being the Men's Rosary group and groups like Termonbacca (yesterday it was stated at the mass that they were the main organisers), which is a small Carmelite retreat/counselling centre in Derry, and including some personalities like Dana and Robert Nugent of the Decrevi youtube channel) organised a national one in Knock and hundreds turned up: https://www.catholicarena.com/latest/rosaryknock081023 .

This year this very small group of people did the same thing, they tried to organise a national Rosary at Knock. You can see in this very short video how many turned up at it yesterday (1/6/2024).

Remember these organisers are a very small group of just a few personalities, not a real national organisation as such (for example all of these buses would be organised locally, just a person in a town deciding to charter a bus and charge people who want to come, not any kind of national effort), and it is not a big feast day, not a well known event in the Catholic calendar, not attended by any big personality/celebrity, and not promoted, I don't believe, on any national or local media. The huge parking spaces at Knock were completely overwhelmed with the stewards directing the cars onto the grass/lawn areas and the huge Basilica was completely packed out.

So if I may address all those people of this generation that assure me that the death of Catholic Ireland is imminent, Cromwell made a big effort in that department, and many others before and since, he didn't succeed so what makes you think your generation will?

by Brian Nugent

 

[scolairebocht]

Its not as bad as that at all in the big towns in the East of the country anyway, and in the traditional Catholic movement its not at all just the elderly, far from it.

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

Robert Nugent of the Decrevi youtube channel

Any relation Sir?

 

[Coal Gas and peat]

Up here they have trained 40 members of the general public to do funerals .....interesting idea ..........it's possible that I could request @Myles O'Reilly to conduct my funeral

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

I would be honoured Sir. I would bury you with full military honours

 

[Coal Gas and peat]

https://www.northernsound.ie/news/30-funeral-ministers-commissioned-by-bishop-of-clogher-235925

 

[scolairebocht]

There are only a few old families of the Nugents (they used to be the local lords of that whole area) in the general Meath/Westmeath area who are native to those parts. Robert Nugent's family is one such (his uncle for example was known to my father) and so is mine so hence we are related but probably quite distantly.

 

[Declan]

What is the state of the breakaway Catholic Church in Ireland. The one that is still pre Vatican two

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

The Catholic population of the 26 counties is about 15 to 20 per cent of the over all population in my estimation because I would exclude people who say they are Catholic but are fine with abortion on demand and believe in reincarnation, etc but go to Mass at least occasionally out of sentimentality, habit and things like that. That is still a very significant percentage of the population- however there is a severe crisis of leadership as well as a sense of despondancy following the abortion referendum which prevents those numbers carrying the weight that they should or could. Officially according to the last census 69 per cent of the population is Catholic.

 

[scolairebocht]

Unfortunately a lot of what you say is true Zip, in that sometimes the numbers of sincere and genuine Catholics can actually be less than the numbers who go to mass. Many of those don't let religion get in the way, in any real or practical sense, of living their lives and hence are hardly sincere Catholics. The traditional movement is much better than way, the sincerity of the congregation comes across in the silence at the consecration for example.

But what do you think of the amazing numbers that came out on Saturday? I cannot give you exact figures but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than attended the recent Papal visit, and that was hyped up and nationally organised to the nth degree.

 

[SaintJavelin]

Despite the massive promotion it turned out to be a complete flop, with the vast majority of schools wishing to stay under Catholic patronage

Because it's been badly managed. Parents are not being told what they are divesting to.

‘Fear, distrust, tension’: How school divestment unravelled in one suburb

Parents in a Dublin suburb say a process to transfer a Catholic school to a multidenominational patron was badly managed, divisive and lacked transparency

www.irishtimes.com

There's also old fashioned disinformation.

Row after parents sent letters on school patronage

A row has erupted after the parents of pupils of two Dublin Catholic primary schools wrote to parents saying a proposed change to patronage would mean children could not celebrate Christmas, St Patrick's Day and Shrove Tuesday.

www.rte.ie

Minister criticises claims over school patronage

The Minister for Education has criticised what he has called "a considerable amount of inaccurate information" that has been shared about what happens when a school changes patron.

www.rte.ie

I suppose if there were real plans in place before voting, with no lies being peddled by the Church, and parents still voted no....then that would be an indicator.

 

[scolairebocht]

Yes Declan so the breakaway Church (or the true Church as we would call it!) is split into 3 parts, the SSPX with large Churches in Dublin, Athlone and Cork, as well as some smaller ones, the Sspx resistance, headquartered in West Cork but also very active in Longford, Dublin and Fermanagh and elsewhere, and Indult Orders and masses, eg Harrington St in Dublin and Orders which are very active in Limerick, Belfast and Waterford/Wexford.

Its holding its own but not growing by leaps and bounds just at the minute

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

Unfortunately a lot of what you say is true Zip, in that sometimes the numbers of sincere and genuine Catholic can actually be less than the numbers who go to mass. Many of those don't let religion get in the way, in any real or practical sense, of living their lives and hence are hardly sincere Catholics. The traditional movement is much better than way, the sincerity of the congregation comes across in the silence at the consecration for example.

But what do you think of the amazing numbers that came out on Saturday? I cannot give you exact figures but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than attended the recent Papal visit, and that was hyped up and nationally organised to the nth degree.

Partly I get my estimate from the percentage of people who voted against abortion on demand in that referendum.

As I said though 15 to 20 per cent is a very large slab of people.

 

[Mad as Fish]

There are only a few old families of the Nugents (they used to be the local lords of that whole area) in the general Meath/Westmeath area who are native to those parts. Robert Nugent's family is one such (his uncle for example was known to my father) and so is mine so hence we are related but probably quite distantly.

Anything to do with the trailer making folk?

 

[scolairebocht]

(Replying to Myles, he is referring to 'Nugent' trailers, a common type of cattle trailer in Ireland I'm not sure actually, somebody said they were based on a patent by a Nugent of Ballinlough Castle, if so they are related, by marriage, to the main Nugents.

 

[scolairebocht]

Kangal: As Free and Clean days, it's madness to say anything related to the Catholic Church gets anything remotely like a fair press, never mind a 'disinformation' campaign, in modern Ireland. You will find parents are not as keen on bringing up their children with woke highly sexualised education as some suppose, and would prefer a traditional Catholic outlook.

 

[SaintJavelin]

celebration could be based around the theme of Christmas or a 'winter festival', depending on the local community

 

[scolairebocht]

Just on the question of the Catholic traditional movement, and why I would say it's holding its own rather than growing much:

Unfortunately there are specific problems in each of the three wings of the movement that I described. The Indult Orders and masses have been hit over the head with a Papal edict called Traditionis Custodes which, if was to be literally or strictly applied, would pretty much wipe them all out. It hasn't happened as bad as that, but nonetheless this has had a very chilling effect on these masses and Orders.

The main SSPX under current management, appears to adopt a softly softly approach to the powers that be clerical and lay. They always want to stay under the radar, and hence get little publicity and hence nobody hears about them and hence they don't grow.

The SSPX Resistance, which is not a wealthy group and has to rely greatly on the generosity, even for house masses, of their congregation, feels under pressure as they are described as a kind of right wing holocaust denial cult fringe group. So they try to stay out of the limelight to exist at all, even not publicising their mass schedule - which is actually pretty impressive, expanding nearly all around Ireland - in order to be allowed exist at all. So again no publicity so it's hard to see how they can attract new adherents.

Such are the problems that are out there!

 

[Skin the Goat]

Which community in Ireland celebrates a "winter festival"?

The ones who built Newgrange?

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

Surely you just have to attend a mass on a Sunday in most churches to see that its on its last legs. I'm an extremely lapsed Catholic but I quite like the mass, so I go the odd time. In my local parish (a working class part of Dublin) the church is about 80 per cent empty and the vast, vast majority of those that are there are elderly.

Frank is right Bocht. The only people going to church anymore are blue rinsed bead rattlers and geriatric old men.

The Priests are even older still.

In a generation the whole thing will be wound up.