The death of Catholic Ireland, greatly exaggerated?

scolairebocht

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Time and again in this country I get assured that the final death of Catholic Ireland is just around the corner. A country, unique in the world in surviving as Catholic in a Protestant state, is supposed to pack up its tent and die any day now, according to the received wisdom of the elites of this country.

But a few interesting points might be made on this.

A while ago the government introduced a scheme, which was very highly promoted and aggressively championed by such as Aodhán Ó'Riordán TD, whereby the schools of management of Irish Catholic schools can hold a vote to change ownership away from the Catholic Church (whose congregation had built and financed the schools originally). Despite the massive promotion it turned out to be a complete flop, with the vast majority of schools wishing to stay under Catholic patronage (https://www.thejournal.ie/catholic-church-in-schools-ireland-6353429-Apr2024/).

Starting in Poland a short time ago, a movement has been created to foster the praying of public Rosaries around the world and not least in Ireland. Sometimes with just Men's Rosaries (but not always), and generally on the first Saturday of the month, they have ballooned to the extent that on the 11th of May last, 2024, it is said that 563 such Rosary rallies were held across Ireland, encompassing some 10,000 or so people. (https://www.isfcc.org/over-10000-participate-in-historic-public-square-rosary-crusade-in-ireland/)

These are generally held in the public square of the various towns around the place but last year they ('they' being the Men's Rosary group and groups like Termonbacca (yesterday it was stated at the mass that they were the main organisers), which is a small Carmelite retreat/counselling centre in Derry, and including some personalities like Dana and Robert Nugent of the Decrevi youtube channel) organised a national one in Knock and hundreds turned up: https://www.catholicarena.com/latest/rosaryknock081023 .

This year this very small group of people did the same thing, they tried to organise a national Rosary at Knock. You can see in this very short video how many turned up at it yesterday (1/6/2024).

Remember these organisers are a very small group of just a few personalities, not a real national organisation as such (for example all of these buses would be organised locally, just a person in a town deciding to charter a bus and charge people who want to come, not any kind of national effort), and it is not a big feast day, not a well known event in the Catholic calendar, not attended by any big personality/celebrity, and not promoted, I don't believe, on any national or local media. The huge parking spaces at Knock were completely overwhelmed with the stewards directing the cars onto the grass/lawn areas and the huge Basilica was completely packed out.

So if I may address all those people of this generation that assure me that the death of Catholic Ireland is imminent, Cromwell made a big effort in that department, and many others before and since, he didn't succeed so what makes you think your generation will?

by Brian Nugent
 

scolairebocht

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Its not as bad as that at all in the big towns in the East of the country anyway, and in the traditional Catholic movement its not at all just the elderly, far from it.
 

scolairebocht

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There are only a few old families of the Nugents (they used to be the local lords of that whole area) in the general Meath/Westmeath area who are native to those parts. Robert Nugent's family is one such (his uncle for example was known to my father) and so is mine so hence we are related but probably quite distantly.
 

Declan

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What is the state of the breakaway Catholic Church in Ireland. The one that is still pre Vatican two
 
Z

Zipporah's Flint

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The Catholic population of the 26 counties is about 15 to 20 per cent of the over all population in my estimation because I would exclude people who say they are Catholic but are fine with abortion on demand and believe in reincarnation, etc but go to Mass at least occasionally out of sentimentality, habit and things like that. That is still a very significant percentage of the population- however there is a severe crisis of leadership as well as a sense of despondancy following the abortion referendum which prevents those numbers carrying the weight that they should or could. Officially according to the last census 69 per cent of the population is Catholic.
 

scolairebocht

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Unfortunately a lot of what you say is true Zip, in that sometimes the numbers of sincere and genuine Catholics can actually be less than the numbers who go to mass. Many of those don't let religion get in the way, in any real or practical sense, of living their lives and hence are hardly sincere Catholics. The traditional movement is much better than way, the sincerity of the congregation comes across in the silence at the consecration for example.

But what do you think of the amazing numbers that came out on Saturday? I cannot give you exact figures but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than attended the recent Papal visit, and that was hyped up and nationally organised to the nth degree.
 
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scolairebocht

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Yes Declan so the breakaway Church (or the true Church as we would call it!) is split into 3 parts, the SSPX with large Churches in Dublin, Athlone and Cork, as well as some smaller ones, the Sspx resistance, headquartered in West Cork but also very active in Longford, Dublin and Fermanagh and elsewhere, and Indult Orders and masses, eg Harrington St in Dublin and Orders which are very active in Limerick, Belfast and Waterford/Wexford.

Its holding its own but not growing by leaps and bounds just at the minute
 
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Z

Zipporah's Flint

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Unfortunately a lot of what you say is true Zip, in that sometimes the numbers of sincere and genuine Catholic can actually be less than the numbers who go to mass. Many of those don't let religion get in the way, in any real or practical sense, of living their lives and hence are hardly sincere Catholics. The traditional movement is much better than way, the sincerity of the congregation comes across in the silence at the consecration for example.

But what do you think of the amazing numbers that came out on Saturday? I cannot give you exact figures but I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than attended the recent Papal visit, and that was hyped up and nationally organised to the nth degree.

Partly I get my estimate from the percentage of people who voted against abortion on demand in that referendum.

As I said though 15 to 20 per cent is a very large slab of people.
 

Mad as Fish

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There are only a few old families of the Nugents (they used to be the local lords of that whole area) in the general Meath/Westmeath area who are native to those parts. Robert Nugent's family is one such (his uncle for example was known to my father) and so is mine so hence we are related but probably quite distantly.
Anything to do with the trailer making folk?
 

scolairebocht

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(Replying to Myles, he is referring to 'Nugent' trailers, a common type of cattle trailer in Ireland:) I'm not sure actually, somebody said they were based on a patent by a Nugent of Ballinlough Castle, if so they are related, by marriage, to the main Nugents.
 

scolairebocht

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Kangal: As Free and Clean days, it's madness to say anything related to the Catholic Church gets anything remotely like a fair press, never mind a 'disinformation' campaign, in modern Ireland. You will find parents are not as keen on bringing up their children with woke highly sexualised education as some suppose, and would prefer a traditional Catholic outlook.
 

scolairebocht

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Just on the question of the Catholic traditional movement, and why I would say it's holding its own rather than growing much:

Unfortunately there are specific problems in each of the three wings of the movement that I described. The Indult Orders and masses have been hit over the head with a Papal edict called Traditionis Custodes which, if was to be literally or strictly applied, would pretty much wipe them all out. It hasn't happened as bad as that, but nonetheless this has had a very chilling effect on these masses and Orders.

The main SSPX under current management, appears to adopt a softly softly approach to the powers that be clerical and lay. They always want to stay under the radar, and hence get little publicity and hence nobody hears about them and hence they don't grow.

The SSPX Resistance, which is not a wealthy group and has to rely greatly on the generosity, even for house masses, of their congregation, feels under pressure as they are described as a kind of right wing holocaust denial cult fringe group. So they try to stay out of the limelight to exist at all, even not publicising their mass schedule - which is actually pretty impressive, expanding nearly all around Ireland - in order to be allowed exist at all. So again no publicity so it's hard to see how they can attract new adherents.

Such are the problems that are out there!
 
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Myles O'Reilly

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Surely you just have to attend a mass on a Sunday in most churches to see that its on its last legs. I'm an extremely lapsed Catholic but I quite like the mass, so I go the odd time. In my local parish (a working class part of Dublin) the church is about 80 per cent empty and the vast, vast majority of those that are there are elderly.
Frank is right Bocht. The only people going to church anymore are blue rinsed bead rattlers and geriatric old men.

The Priests are even older still.

In a generation the whole thing will be wound up.
 
Z

Zipporah's Flint

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The SSPX Resistance, which is not a wealthy group and has to rely greatly on the generosity, even for house masses, of their congregation, feels under pressure as they are described as a kind of right wing holocaust denial cult fringe group. So they try to stay out of the limelight to exist at all, even not publicising their mass schedule - which is actually pretty impressive, expanding nearly all around Ireland - in order to be allowed exist at all. So again no publicity so it's hard to see how they attract new adherents.

Such are the problems that are out there!

I believe though that they have a Covenant in Cork.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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There's also old fashioned disinformation.
There's no such thing as old fashioned "disinformation". That buzzword only came around a couple of years ago during the Corona hysteria.

Around the same time you got a sticker and a lollipop for taking the first of your dozen jabs.
 

scolairebocht

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I don't know what your pessimism about the future of the Church is based on Myles? If you go to the Catholic Latin mass you will see all ages there, and the priests are generally very young. Also all of those Orders, the Indult ones, the SSPX and the Resistance have huge numbers of Irish vocations, possibly they already exceed the numbers coming forward as seminarians in the various Dioceses in Ireland.
 

scolairebocht

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Yes Zip, I think the nuns that were in Cork are connected to the Resistance, although not a formal part of them I don't think. The Resistance have their main house in West Cork but travel very extensively across the country. During Covid they hardly missed a beat, they were the most impressive of all religious orders in Ireland, putting huge effort into clandestine house masses etc.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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I don't know what your pessimism about the future of the Church is based on Myles? If you go to the Catholic Latin mass you will see all ages there, and the priests are generally very young. Also all of those Orders, the Indult ones, the SSPX and the Resistance have huge numbers of Irish vocations, possibly they already exceed the numbers coming forward as seminarians in the various Dioceses in Ireland.
I would've thought those masses are fringe groupings?

Have you gone to a regular church that makes up the vast majority? They're on life support Sir.
 

scolairebocht

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Well whats your explanation for what happened last Saturday then Myles? As I pointed out, no national and I don't think local, media publicity, no famous personality, no national group calling the event as such, not an important feast day etc etc, it was just a small group calling for a national Rosary and gigantic numbers turn up? Maybe I was unclear on the video, those buses that you see all have another bus parked behind them, it was truly an incredible crowd.
 
D

dropkickmejeebus

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I'm converting to Eastern Orthodox. Not a spur of the moment decision. I've struggled with the Catholic outlook since Francis was ordained. Even before I think.
It's become hollow.
 

Professor

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I'm converting to Eastern Orthodox. Not a spur of the moment decision. I've struggled with the Catholic outlook since Francis was ordained. Even before I think.
It's become hollow.

Hallelujah Sister Sticle, don't forget to pray for us now and then god bless you.

Sister Sticle.jpg
 

scolairebocht

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But have you looked at the traditional Catholic movement, the Latin mass etc?
 
D

dropkickmejeebus

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But have you looked at the traditional Catholic movement, the Latin mass etc?
I have. But Orthodoxy for me seems to be the truer form of Christianity.
I've spent some time studying it, did their Lenten fast and went to their Easter liturgy. It just seems right to me.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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Well whats your explanation for what happened last Saturday then Myles? As I pointed out, no national and I don't think local, media publicity, no famous personality, no national group calling the event as such, not an important feast day etc etc, it was just a small group calling for a national Rosary and gigantic numbers turn up? Maybe I was unclear on the video, those buses that you see all have another bus parked behind them, it was truly an incredible crowd.
I didn't see the demographics of the worshippers Sir but if they all had grey hair its simply a matter of time I'm afraid.
 

Anderson

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Most people who were baptized Catholic probably identify more as Christians than Catholics.

I for one am not impressed with the church over recent years, especially the leadership of the current Pope.

If Catholicism is to be saved, it needs to modernize, move away from the wokeness of the world, reform to traditional values as well as modernize its role in society.

I believe we should allow priests to marry and I have no issue with women becomming priests themselves.

I do believe the Protestant church is in more danger however, they have gone full woke in allowing a woke agenda to infiltrate many of their churches.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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I have no issue with women becomming priests themselves.

I do believe the Protestant church is in more danger however, they have gone full woke in allowing a woke agenda to infiltrate many of their churches.
Could those two issues be linked in any way?
 

scolairebocht

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It was mixed as regards ages, plenty of young people including from the Travelling community, but maybe 3 quarters female. If you go to mass in any of the big towns you will find plenty of young people at mass, in my experience anyway. This is less true of some rural areas I admit, because there is huge emigration of younger Irish people out of those areas anyway.
 

Anderson

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Could those two issues be linked in any way?
I do not believe so, there seems to be as in all walks of life to be an agenda to even make the church woke. someone is forcing this ideology. mitted them to do this.

Look at this for instance, who permitted this?

(This story is about a young priest in the Anglican Church)
Screenshot (18).png


Do Straight priests stand up in church to declare they are straight?

How about a priest just be a priest, preach the word of God, and be a good person?


View: https://youtu.be/dB8bM6eO7G0


The below indicates what is wrong with the church,


View: https://x.com/GNRcatholics/status/1687393296849555456


And then we have this,

All are Welcome​

June 28 2016
The ALL ARE WELCOME MASS is a monthly celebration of Sunday Mass, at which all are welcome, with a particular welcome for lgbt (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered) people, their parents, family members, and friends. Celebrants have included Archbishop Diarmuid Martin and diocesan and religious priests.
We, the organisers, hope all who take part feel they belong in a PRAYING COMMUNITY. We invite you to come along and take part in the ALL ARE WELCOME MASS. We ask you to tell people about it. We are very keen to hear from Catholic priests who would like to take part as celebrants.
The ALL ARE WELCOME MASS is open to the public. It takes place in the chapel in Avila Carmelite Centre, Bloomfield Avenue (off Morehampton Road), Donnybrook, Dublin 4 (parking available) on the THIRD Sunday of each month at 3.30 p.m. The liturgy, the Sunday Mass, is followed by chat over tea and coffee in Avila’s dining room.
The ALL ARE WELCOME MASS started in June 2012 in the home of one of the founding organisers. In November 2013 it moved to Avila Carmelite Centre.
We, the organisers, are :-
Noel Moran, Michael Hayes, Phyl Stanley, and Louise O’Sullivan.
Please contact us by email:- allarewelcomemass@gmail.com
Our website is:- www.allarewelcomemass.com



The comments sum it up perfectly,

Why is the ‘All are welcome mass’ necessary? Is it because all are not welcome at other masses? It certainly implies this.

This is not truly pastoral. The reality is that our church teaches that those who are in homosexual relationships separate themselves from God. This is tough for many to accept but truth will always remain truth. Jesus said the road to heaven is hard not easy. Shame on Archbishop Martin for partaking in and allowing such a mass to take place in his diocese. If anything it creates the sin of scandal in my opinion. .

Churches are chasing the LGBTQ flag, they are losing their way because of this and other areas, and in turn, many are sick of what is happening, I am.

The Church is supposed to be spiritual, and not involved in politics however it needs to reform which in my view would benefit hugely from allowing women to be priests and allowing priests to marry. We need to bring the family back into the church and I mean preaching family values.

And then we have the Pope, leading this pathetic example, bowing to Islam.


1717494087352.png
 

SeekTheFairLand

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So it seems more people are cottoning on to this, modest as of yet, revival in the Catholic Church in Ireland:
View: https://x.com/paddymacc1/status/1872161753225912605?t=FlhlNsPyfpWj9-lfNqtcPQ&s=19

We went to a neigbouring parish for Mass yesterday morning. 3 chapels in the parish in a rural area. 2 out of 3 had a Christmas Eve Midnight Mass and all 3 had Christmas morning Mass. Usually the Midnight ones are at 6/7pm and are packed with families and morning ones alot more quiet. Our one was quite quiet but coming home we passed one of the other chapels and it was packed. car park full, local GAA club car park also full and cars parked up on the ditch too. We couldnt get over the crowd that Mass [10.30am]. The Priest in our home parish had a barney with my Mother during Covid and we've been going to the neighbouring parish since.
 

scolairebocht

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Yes I went to St Johns SSPX in Dun Laoghaire and I think it was quite a bit bigger than last year and I don't really know why. Even the priest seemed to remark on it in his sermon.
 

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