Communist Economics in Ireland, car ownership as an example

scolairebocht

Moderator
Staff member
Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
1,488
filling station hunterstown co donegal.jpg


This writer has tried to articulate that the best way to understand modern Ireland, is to see how Communist countries were historically run, and you will find that to be the best analogy for what happens now on the island. Opposed to that concept, many people will claim that we are a free market, non state dominated, economy. But possibly a look at the tax take, never mind the huge regulations, might tend to dent that comforting assumption. An example of the humble motor car is used here to test this theory.


Purchase Price

Alongwith the purchase of almost everything else, the cost of buying a car in Ireland can attract some serious taxes. But this is especially true now because of some new ones that apply for importation from the UK and which came in around the time of Brexit. These taxes can be quite difficult to calculate exactly, but the Revenue Commissioners give a sample VRT figure (one of these taxes) for a 2015 1.9 litre hatchback diesel car on their website, and since on the huge autotrader.co.uk website it lists only one type of car with that specification, an MG MG6, then presumably the Revenue figures will apply to that exact make of car.(1) Hence you can buy this car in the UK right now for £2,800 (€3,257) (2) and the overall tax appears to be:
– Customs Duty of 10% of invoice price (3): €326
– then you add that figure to the car plus the cost of importation (c.€400) and insurance (maybe €200) and then you pay VAT of 23% on this consolidated figure (€4,183) (4): €962
– and then add on the VRT sample figure on this type of car, again as stated on the Revenue Commissioners website, including NOX and CO2,: €6,952.
That gives you a tax bill of €8,240 for a car that costs €3,257, a tax rate of 253%.

That might be an extreme example, because its the importation of a vehicle from the UK and an older diesel model which attracts higher NOX and CO2 taxes, but charges of this type are not that uncommon now. Since Ireland has no domestic car manufacturing industry all cars are imported at some point, and hence attract the heavy Value Added Tax (about 23% of the manufacturers/sellers asking price) and hefty Vehicle Registration Tax (traditionally about 24% of what Revenue consider the price should be, after the VAT has been added in, a kind of tax on tax). Also older diesels are frequently the only type of car a poorer person in a rural area can drive, because they tend to be much better on miles per gallon, a very important consideration for such a driver. Some of the massive taxes in the above example are only if importing from the UK, but that is traditionally very common in Ireland, much much moreso than from the EU because of course the UK has left hand drive cars, like Ireland but unlike the rest of Europe.

Also the above is not for some luxury car, its a practical car for maybe a poorer person, the figures on tax can get a lot worse if you were in the market for the former. For example you can buy in Ireland right now a 2000 Jaguar S-type for €1,900, but your annual tax bill on it will be €1,494, 79% tax to be paid every year. The overall tax bill over the life of a car like that must be astronomical when you add on the VAT and VRT when it was purchased new.(5) It is quite normal in Ireland for a secondhand car that cost say €1,400 attracting an annual car tax bill of about €700, obviously 50% or so.

Albeit I am referring here to the extreme end, but if you have purchase taxes of 253% and annual taxes of 79%, on such a standard necessary item as a car, then why are people so shy of calling this a Communist state?


Fuel

Meanwhile the tax take on a litre of petrol in Ireland now is estimated at 56%, consisting of VAT, Excise, Carbon Tax, and the National Oil Reserves Agency (Nora) and Better Energy levies.(6) This tax percentage is actually reasonably low by Irish standards, because most of the tax is the Excise which does not fluctuate with the price of fuel. Since the overall fuel price is exceptionally high right now, it means, bizarrely, that the tax as a percentage is therefore less, historically it would be the mid or late 60s, or even 70, per cent.

But in Ireland now, as part of an EU regulation, there is a special windfall tax on energy companies. They now pay 75% extra tax on any profits over 20% of their historic profits over the last three years.(7) This tax seems to be the highest in Europe, going by this quote from a European wide survey of these taxes:
“The proposed and implemented windfall taxes differ significantly in their tax rates (ranging from 25 percent in the United Kingdom to 70 percent in Slovakia and 75 percent in Ireland)...”(8)
So when you see the oil companies gaining by the higher petrol price at the pump (which is very true right now), then they are paying 75% tax on that extra gain.

Hence if you really wanted to add up the true tax take from the motorist paying for fuel in Ireland, you have that 56%, added to 75% tax on whatever is the excess been paid to the oil producers because of the high oil price, plus rates, payroll and corporate taxes on the (small) percentage left to the forecourt owners, and of course also paid by the oil companies for their businesses in Ireland, and you begin to wonder if about 90% could be the true figure for taxes on car fuel in Ireland?

With those kind of figures on a core essential component of Irish family and economic life, again I ask, why shy away from calling Ireland a Communist country?

by Brian Nugent, www.orwellianireland.com


Footnotes
1. https://www.revenue.ie/en/vrt/calculating-vrt/calculating-nox-charge.aspx, and remember this is just a reasonable assumption, the exact make of car is not listed here. Their other VRT calculator does not list a diesel 2015 MG6.

2. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407121710636 .

3. See https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058056834/importing-from-the-uk-definitive-guide-q-and-a/p129 .

4. The calculation here is also complicated, but in practice will work out at something like this, whether paid to either the UK or Irish government, and hopefully not both!

5. https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/jaguar-s-type-3-0-v6-exe-auto-clean-car-nice-d/37495714 .

6. https://www.theaa.ie/motoring-advice/fuel-prices/ .

7. https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/t.../law-on-energy-windfall-tax-comes-into-effect .

8. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/windfall-tax-europe-2023/ .
 
Last edited:

willows68

Well-known member
New
Joined
Jun 25, 2024
Messages
885
Reaction score
1,214
View attachment 6152

This writer has tried to articulate that the best way to understand modern Ireland, is to see how Communist countries were historically run, and you will find that to be the best analogy for what happens now on the island. Opposed to that concept, many people will claim that we are a free market, non state dominated, economy. But possibly a look at the tax take, never mind the huge regulations, might tend to dent that comforting assumption. An example of the humble motor car is used here to test this theory.


Purchase Price

Alongwith the purchase of almost everything else, the cost of buying a car in Ireland can attract some serious taxes. But this is especially true now because of some new ones that apply for importation from the UK and which came in around the time of Brexit. These taxes can be quite difficult to calculate exactly, but the Revenue Commissioners give a sample VRT figure (one of these taxes) for a 2015 1.9 litre hatchback diesel car on their website, and since on the huge autotrader.co.uk website it lists only one type of car with that specification, an MG MG6, then presumably the Revenue figures will apply to that exact make of car.(1) Hence you can buy this car in the UK right now for £2,800 (€3,257) (2) and the overall tax appears to be:
– Customs Duty of 10% of invoice price (3): €326
– then you add that figure to the car plus the cost of importation (c.€400) and insurance (maybe €200) and then you pay VAT of 23% on this consolidated figure (€4,183) (4): €962
– and then add on the VRT sample figure on this type of car, again as stated on the Revenue Commissioners website, including NOX and CO2,: €6,952.
That gives you a tax bill of €8,240 for a car that costs €3,257, a tax rate of 253%.

That might be an extreme example, because its the importation of a vehicle from the UK and an older diesel model which attracts higher NOX and CO2 taxes, but charges of this type are not that uncommon now. Since Ireland has no domestic car manufacturing industry all cars are imported at some point, and hence attract the heavy Value Added Tax (about 23% of the manufacturers/sellers asking price) and hefty Vehicle Registration Tax (traditionally about 24% of what Revenue consider the price should be, after the VAT has been added in, a kind of tax on tax). Also older diesels are frequently the only type of car a poorer person in a rural area can drive, because they tend to be much better on miles per gallon, a very important consideration for such a driver. Some of the massive taxes in the above example are only if importing from the UK, but that is traditionally very common in Ireland, much much moreso than from the EU because of course the UK has left hand drive cars, like Ireland but unlike the rest of Europe.

Also the above is not for some luxury car, its a practical car for maybe a poorer person, the figures on tax can get a lot worse if you were in the market for the former. For example you can buy in Ireland right now a 2000 Jaguar S-type for €1,900, but your annual tax bill on it will be €1,494, 79% tax to be paid every year. The overall tax bill over the life of a car like that must be astronomical when you add on the VAT and VRT when it was purchased new.(5) It is quite normal in Ireland for a secondhand car that cost say €1,400 attracting an annual car tax bill of about €700, obviously 50% or so.

Albeit I am referring here to the extreme end, but if you have purchase taxes of 253% and annual taxes of 79%, on such a standard necessary item as a car, then why are people so shy of calling this a Communist state?


Fuel

Meanwhile the tax take on a litre of petrol in Ireland now is estimated at 56%, consisting of VAT, Excise, Carbon Tax, and the National Oil Reserves Agency (Nora) and Better Energy levies.(6) This tax percentage is actually reasonably low by Irish standards, because most of the tax is the Excise which does not fluctuate with the price of fuel. Since the overall fuel price is exceptionally high right now, it means, bizarrely, that the tax as a percentage is therefore less, historically it would be the mid or late 60s, or even 70, per cent.

But in Ireland now, as part of an EU regulation, there is a special windfall tax on energy companies. They now pay 75% extra tax on any profits over 20% of their historic profits over the last three years.(7) This tax seems to be the highest in Europe, going by this quote from a European wide survey of these taxes:

So when you see the oil companies gaining by the higher petrol price at the pump (which is very true right now), then they are paying 75% tax on that extra gain.

Hence if you really wanted to add up the true tax take from the motorist paying for fuel in Ireland, you have that 56%, added to 75% tax on whatever is the excess been paid to the oil producers because of the high oil price, plus rates, payroll and corporate taxes on the (small) percentage left to the forecourt owners, and of course also paid by the oil companies for their businesses in Ireland, and you begin to wonder if about 90% could be the true figure for taxes on car fuel in Ireland?

With those kind of figures on a core essential component of Irish family and economic life, again I ask, why shy away from calling Ireland a Communist country?

by Brian Nugent, www.orwellianireland.com


Footnotes
1. https://www.revenue.ie/en/vrt/calculating-vrt/calculating-nox-charge.aspx, and remember this is just a reasonable assumption, the exact make of car is not listed here. Their other VRT calculator does not list a diesel 2015 MG6.

2. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407121710636 .

3. See https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058056834/importing-from-the-uk-definitive-guide-q-and-a/p129 .

4. The calculation here is also complicated, but in practice will work out at something like this, whether paid to either the UK or Irish government, and hopefully not both!

5. https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/jaguar-s-type-3-0-v6-exe-auto-clean-car-nice-d/37495714 .

6. https://www.theaa.ie/motoring-advice/fuel-prices/ .

7. https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/t.../law-on-energy-windfall-tax-comes-into-effect .

8. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/windfall-tax-europe-2023/ .
Outstanding. All the while politicians are exempt from this and that extortion ( tax in my world), and rule over the populace roughshod, like the manor folk of yore.
What's missing is the required forelock tugging, lest one longed for a flogging.
It isn't communism.
It's neo- feudalism...even in medieval times a tenth was all they'd rob from you.
 

SwordOfStZip

Moderator
Staff member
Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2024
Messages
1,580
Reaction score
872
This writer has tried to articulate that the best way to understand modern Ireland, is to see how Communist countries were historically run, and you will find that to be the best analogy for what happens now on the island. Opposed to that concept, many people will claim that we are a free market, non state dominated, economy. But possibly a look at the tax take, never mind the huge regulations, might tend to dent that comforting assumption. An example of the humble motor car is used here to test this theory.

But taxes in the Soviet Union were between 7 and 12 per cent of people's incomes (with all the indirect taxes it is hard to know exactly what percentage of their income people here and in the rest of Western Europe pay in tax) outside of the civil war and World War II/the Great Patriotic War and you had similar in the "People's Democracies".

If we were living in a Communist system than we would be paying far less tax than we are, the tax burden is actually evidence that we are living in an ordinary Capitalist one.
 

Myles O'Reilly

Well-known member
New
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
7,137
Reaction score
5,499
But taxes in the Soviet Union were between 7 and 12 per cent of people's incomes (with all the indirect taxes it is hard to know exactly what percentage of their income people here and in the rest of Western Europe pay in tax) outside of the civil war and World War II/the Great Patriotic War and you had similar in the "People's Democracies".
If we were living in a Communist system than we would be paying far less tax than we are, the tax burden is actually evidence that we are living in an ordinary Capitalist one.
Yeah but did you see the shit heaps they drove over there?

1722889983495.jpeg
 

clarke-connolly

Well-known member
Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2023
Messages
5,430
Reaction score
4,875
But taxes in the Soviet Union were between 7 and 12 per cent of people's incomes (with all the indirect taxes it is hard to know exactly what percentage of their income people here and in the rest of Western Europe pay in tax) outside of the civil war and World War II/the Great Patriotic War and you had similar in the "People's Democracies".

If we were living in a Communist system than we would be paying far less tax than we are, the tax burden is actually evidence that we are living in an ordinary Capitalist one.
Wasn't one of the sayings of People living under Commmunism

" " They pretended to pay us, and we pretended to work " "
 

scolairebocht

Moderator
Staff member
Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
1,488
Fair enough Sword, but surely our understanding of Communism, as opposed to Capitalism, is the degree to which economic activity goes through the state? So if you have 90% taxes rolling through the state then can we not say the state is all powerful, i.e. Communism?

That said I wouldn't be surprised to hear that is actually worse in Ireland now than it was under some of the Eastern bloc states under Communism.
 

scolairebocht

Moderator
Staff member
Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
1,488
Many thanks willow anyway, and yes I think people in the not that long ago would be shocked at any concept of tax over about 10%, some current taxes are off the charts and people surely have every right to ask is this at all right or reasonable?
 

SwordOfStZip

Moderator
Staff member
Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2024
Messages
1,580
Reaction score
872
Fair enough Sword, but surely our understanding of Communism, as opposed to Capitalism, is the degree to which economic activity goes through the state? So if you have 90% taxes rolling through the state then can we not say the state is all powerful, i.e. Communism?

That said I wouldn't be surprised to hear that is actually worse in Ireland now than it was under some of the Eastern bloc states under Communism.

Why? The Soviet Union said it was not Communist but that it was going towards Communism and one of the reasons it was not actually Communist was that the State still existed. Taiwan among other places had massive economic activity going through the State and no one considered them Communist or Socialist. It is public ownership of the means of production and distribution that defines whether something is Socialist or not. You could not have Socialism here now because people are too individualistic and greedily hedonistic.
 

Latest Threads

Popular Threads

Top Bottom