Disturbing but very arguably realistic quote on the relations between Truth and Power in this world.

SwordOfStZip

SwordOfStZip

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Jambo posted the link today to the article this is from and this paragraph jumped out at me. I would be very interested to hear what others have to say about it. Particularly the sentence that I have underlined. Obviously I believe that willfully ignoring or worse the objective truth is a sin- but sins can be very effective politically in this Age. It does some times seem to me that not being chained so to speak to principles of objectivity has served certain groups well politically.

"......Many have concluded that power is more important in worldly affairs than objective truth, because they have noticed that power can operate to a great extent in ignorance of and even in opposition to the truth. It is even conceivable that one’s power level can be measured by the extent to which one can ignore the truth without experiencing failure or injury. Those with less power have to accede either to those with more, or to the objective truth, which in any case might get overridden by those with power. The idea that objective truth alone will save us, in any situation, is naive...."

millennialwoes.substack.com

The Woke Right

Responding to a trick
millennialwoes.substack.com millennialwoes.substack.com
 
SwordOfStZip said:
Jambo posted the link today to the article this is from and this paragraph jumped out at me. I would be very interested to hear what others have to say about it. Particularly the sentence that I have underlined. Obviously I believe that willfully ignoring or worse the objective truth is a sin- but sins can be very effective politically in this Age. It does some times seem to me that not being chained so to speak to principles of objectivity has served certain groups well politically.

"......Many have concluded that power is more important in worldly affairs than objective truth, because they have noticed that power can operate to a great extent in ignorance of and even in opposition to the truth. It is even conceivable that one’s power level can be measured by the extent to which one can ignore the truth without experiencing failure or injury. Those with less power have to accede either to those with more, or to the objective truth, which in any case might get overridden by those with power. The idea that objective truth alone will save us, in any situation, is naive...."

millennialwoes.substack.com

The Woke Right

Responding to a trick
millennialwoes.substack.com millennialwoes.substack.com
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That is in the context of supposed commonalities between the woke left and the "woke right"

Do you know what "woke right" is yet? 🤔
 
AN2 said:
That is in the context of supposed commonalities between the woke left and the "woke right"

Do you know what "woke right" is yet? 🤔
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Tell us in a couple of sentences!

I have heard this term bandied about, but can't be bothered to do the research !
 
It is even conceivable that one’s power level can be measured by the extent to which one can ignore the truth without experiencing failure or injury.

But hasn't that always been the case, wasn't 1984 a prolonged essay on this very observation?
 
AN2 said:
That is in the context of supposed commonalities between the woke left and the "woke right"

Do you know what "woke right" is yet? 🤔
Click to expand...

The "Woke Right" is people who it is very hard to argue that they are not Right wing but who Jordan Peterson and James Lindsay dislike. Alternatively you can define the way the term is used to mean people on the Right who do not treat Jews in the same way that "Woke" Leftists treat Blacks.

That paragraph though made me think of both Hindutva and certain types of Ulster Loyalist as well as those who shall remain nameless.
 
SwordOfStZip said:
The "Woke Right" is people who it is very hard to argue that they are not Right wing but who Jordan Peterson and James Lindsay dislike. Alternatively you can define the way the term is used to mean people on the Right who do not treat Jews in the same way that "Woke" Leftists treat Blacks.

That paragraph though made me think of both Hindutva and certain types of Ulster Loyalist as well as those who shall remain nameless.
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Well, I'm quite conscientious with how I word things.. I didn't actually ask you who is the "woke right", I asked you what is "woke right". That refers to the term itself, and just as likely to refer to the people who use it as the people it supposedly is
 
AN2 said:
Well, I'm quite conscientious with how I word things.. I didn't actually ask you who is the "woke right", I asked you what is "woke right". That refers to the term itself, and just as likely to refer to the people who use it as the people it supposedly is
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Well previously to it being popularized by James Lindsay and Jordan Peterson I would have said it meant the part of the Right that embraced homosexualism and mass immigration along with labeling people who opposed such things as evil bigots.
 
SwordOfStZip said:
Well previously to it being popularized by James Lindsay and Jordan Peterson I would have said it meant the part of the Right that embraced homosexualism and mass immigration along with labeling people who opposed such things as evil bigots.
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But you're still not thinking of it as a compound term

Someone who's "woke right" is not someone, as you say, "who it is very hard to argue that they are not Right wing" who shares precisely the same views as a woke leftist
 
AN2 said:
But you're still not thinking of it as a compound term

Someone who's "woke right" is not someone, as you say, "who it is very hard to argue that they are not Right wing" who shares precisely the same views as a woke leftist
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But they don't- they only share them on certain topics and than they often do so for different reasons.

Does anyone actually describe themselves as "Woke Right"?
 
SwordOfStZip said:
But they don't- they only share them on certain topics and than they often do so for different reasons.
Click to expand...
But they don't

You said that the "woke right" is: the part of the Right that embraced homosexualism and mass immigration along with labeling people who opposed such things as evil bigots.

SwordOfStZip said:
Does anyone actually describe themselves as "Woke Right"?
Click to expand...
I am "woke right", according to the people who use the term. Does your description above sound like me?
 
AN2 said:
But they don't

You said that the "woke right" is: the part of the Right that embraced homosexualism and mass immigration along with labeling people who opposed such things as evil bigots.


I am "woke right", according to the people who use the term. Does your description above sound like me?
Click to expand...

People in Fine Gael believe in mass immigration and homosexualism- so do people in the various Trot parties. However they agree those issues often for very different reasons and on most issues they would disagree with each other.

Yes but applying the judgements James Lindsay claims to use in making you "Woke Right" if we are to be objective than Ben Shapiro and Bari Weiss are also "Woke Right". And James Lindsay would never use that term for them. I think the people who use the term do so not in order to understand and describe things better but rather as a tool for shaming and/or excluding people who they both disagree with and do not want to discuss those disagreements with.
 
Post in thread 'What is the relationship of edgy mainstream Rightism (McGuirk, Tommeh, etc) to the Dissident Right and Nationalism?' https://www.sarsfieldsvirtualpub.co...sident-right-and-nationalism.1044/post-126660

img_20250128_115229_997-jpg.7147
 
SwordOfStZip said:
People in Fine Gael believe in mass immigration and homosexualism- so do people in the various Trot parties. However they agree those issues often for very different reasons and on most issues they would disagree with each other.
Click to expand...
SwordOfStZip said:
Yes but applying the judgements James Lindsay claims to use in making you "Woke Right" if we are to be objective than Ben Shapiro and Bari Weiss are also "Woke Right". And James Lindsay would never use that term for them.
Click to expand...
That hypocrisy, double standard, whatever you want to call it, is dealt with in the essay. It's also noted that the people who use the term are all Zionists

SwordOfStZip said:
I think the people who use the term do so not in order to understand and describe things better but rather as a tool for shaming and/or excluding people who they both disagree with and do not want to discuss those disagreements with.
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clarke-connolly said:
Yes Please !

A couple of straight forward sentences would do !
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I could probably do better and describe it in a single word: Gatekeeping

But allow me to write a sentence or two..

The first thing to understand is that it's a slur, and it's a slur to appeal to rightists, not leftists, after all, leftists don't think of 'woke' as a slur, rightists do

Then it's essentially attempting to mirror left-wing wokeism onto (supposed) right-wing wokeism, in particular identity politics, which is what a nationalist is, an identitarian

And, as I wrote recently -

Post in thread 'What is the relationship of edgy mainstream Rightism (McGuirk, Tommeh, etc) to the Dissident Right and Nationalism?' https://www.sarsfieldsvirtualpub.co...sident-right-and-nationalism.1044/post-133468
 
AN2 said:
I could probably do better and describe it in a single word: Gatekeeping

But allow me to write a sentence or two..

The first thing to understand is that it's a slur, and it's a slur to appeal to rightists, not leftists, after all, leftists don't think of 'woke' as a slur, rightists do

Then it's essentially attempting to mirror left-wing wokeism onto (supposed) right-wing wokeism, in particular identity politics, which is what a nationalist is, an identitarian

And, as I wrote recently -

Post in thread 'What is the relationship of edgy mainstream Rightism (McGuirk, Tommeh, etc) to the Dissident Right and Nationalism?' https://www.sarsfieldsvirtualpub.co...sident-right-and-nationalism.1044/post-133468
Click to expand...

It is half puerile insult and half not so clever trick.

However the way that Jordan Peterson, James Lindsay, Kisin, etc propaganda works is through it's knack of making not so bright people think that they are somehow sophisticated intellectuals above the common herd- hence the insufferable arrogance of so many of their followers. And the whole "Woke Right" spiel actually manages to play into that.
 
SwordOfStZip said:
It is half puerile insult and half not so clever trick.

However the way that Jordan Peterson, James Lindsay, Kisin, etc propaganda works is through it's knack of making not so bright people think that they are somehow sophisticated intellectuals above the common herd- hence the insufferable arrogance of so many of their followers. And the whole "Woke Right" spiel actually manages to play into that.
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Well it ("woke right") didn't get by any nationalist 😁

But I don't think that one should underestimate the power of gatekeeping. Look at poor @Myles O'Reilly (& Tommeh)
 
AN2 said:
Well it ("woke right") didn't get by any nationalist 😁

But I don't think that one should underestimate the power of gatekeeping. Look at poor @Myles O'Reilly (& Tommeh)
Click to expand...

If James Lindsay et al were using it just to mean ethno-nationalists on the Right that would be one thing but they have labelled not just Candace Owens but also the non-Zionist Jewish Libertarian Murray Rothbard as both being "Woke Right".

Tommeh as you refer in him is connected with the likes of Peterson, Dave Rubin, Kisin et al (or as my sister refers to them "the K++es and the Qu+ers" but I think he is a different phenomena, certainly his brand works in a different, often radically , different way to how their brands work.
 
SwordOfStZip said:
If James Lindsay et al were using it just to mean ethno-nationalists on the Right that would be one thing but they have labelled not just Candace Owens but also the non-Zionist Jewish Libertarian Murray Rothbard as both being "Woke Right".

Tommeh as you refer in him is connected with the likes of Peterson, Dave Rubin, Kisin et al (or as my sister refers to them "the K++es and the Qu+ers" but I think he is a different phenomena, certainly his brand works in a different, often radically , different way to how their brands work.
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Candace Owens is a conspiracy theorist and I've never heard of the other person

If you want to provide citations of what you say, or tell me why I should care, then feel free..
 
AN2 said:
Candace Owens is a conspiracy theorist and I've never heard of the other person

If you want to provide citations of what you say, or tell me why I should care, then feel free..
Click to expand...

You have never heard of Murray Rothbard? Seriously?
 
AN2 said:
I could probably do better and describe it in a single word: Gatekeeping

But allow me to write a sentence or two..

The first thing to understand is that it's a slur, and it's a slur to appeal to rightists, not leftists, after all, leftists don't think of 'woke' as a slur, rightists do

Then it's essentially attempting to mirror left-wing wokeism onto (supposed) right-wing wokeism, in particular identity politics, which is what a nationalist is, an identitarian

And, as I wrote recently -

Post in thread 'What is the relationship of edgy mainstream Rightism (McGuirk, Tommeh, etc) to the Dissident Right and Nationalism?' https://www.sarsfieldsvirtualpub.co...sident-right-and-nationalism.1044/post-133468
Click to expand...
So, this is a video I just watched that was (not) randomly algorithmed into my YouTube feed -


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C8jSCRPNwmI&t=16m23s

Rewind for the full thing if you so wish, it's quite good
 
AN2 said:
Well it ("woke right") didn't get by any nationalist 😁

But I don't think that one should underestimate the power of gatekeeping. Look at poor @Myles O'Reilly (& Tommeh)
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the first order of business by the Zionists is identify the enemy and then accurately describe and document the enemy .
having given them shape and form you dig deeper and see from where does their energy source come from --how powerful is that source can we grab the reins and make their wagon crash into another wagon and thereby with a mere deflection cause both wagons to disintegrate and kill everyone on board using THEIR ENERGY .
the deflection takes little energy and the crash can be blamed on the aggressive nature of the wagoneers and their stupidity .
years later the truth comes out but it is too late -the movement disintegrated imploded by its own energy .
the subdivision of the right into 6 or more warring factions -all desperately trying to tell the world i am not one of them is the sound of wagons crashing.
 
AN2 said:
Yes, srsly
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He was the Jewish father of modern Right Libertarianism (I had assumed that you would have encountered Right Libertarians at some point in your life)- he came out with some psycho things however he was an interesting thinker. I think that if people adopted his definition of "Antisemitism" as advocating or enforcing legal discrimination against Jews it would actually be better for everyone though it would put people like Joseph Cohen and Jonathan Greenblatt out of a job.

www.latimes.com

COLUMN RIGHT/ MURRAY N. ROTHBARD : Buchanan an Anti-Semite? It's a Smear : His enemies labored hard, and brought forth a pitiful mouse.

In this day and age, the charge of "anti-Semitism" is a grave one, placing a weighty burden of moral responsibility on anyone making such an accusation.
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
 
SwordOfStZip said:
He was the Jewish father of modern Right Libertarianism (I had assumed that you would have encountered Right Libertarians at some point in your life)- he came out with some psycho things however he was an interesting thinker. I think that if people adopted his definition of "Antisemitism" as advocating or enforcing legal discrimination against Jews it would actually be better for everyone though it would put people like Joseph Cohen and Jonathan Greenblatt out of a job.

www.latimes.com

COLUMN RIGHT/ MURRAY N. ROTHBARD : Buchanan an Anti-Semite? It's a Smear : His enemies labored hard, and brought forth a pitiful mouse.

In this day and age, the charge of "anti-Semitism" is a grave one, placing a weighty burden of moral responsibility on anyone making such an accusation.
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
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I cringe at the likes of Clanrickard & Parlon.. Both free speech advocates and both philosemites
 
SwordOfStZip said:
Why do people like Myles and Kev love to dominated by such characters?
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It's particularly uh, noticeable when a Zionist Jew does it. At least Tommeh can say that he isn't a nationalist, which is true, at least when it comes to his own people
 
AN2 said:
Zionist Jew and TR BFF peddles the anti-white slur "woke right" -
Click to expand...

But Candace Owens and I am sure other "People of Color" (sic) who I don't know about get called "Woke Right" also.

By the when it comes to the issue of mass immigration into Ireland I would fall under Jordan Peterson's daughter's idea of "Woke Right".

There is more to the term also I think than "someone of the Right who Zionist Jews have a problem with" (which is how I have anecdotal that a lot of people who are not "White Nationalists" have come to think it means).
 
SwordOfStZip said:
But Candace Owens and I am sure other "People of Color" (sic) who I don't know about get called "Woke Right" also.
Click to expand...
Do you have any examples?

If anyone called Owens (who's a low IQ conspiracy theorist) "woke right", it would be because she's antisemitic

SwordOfStZip said:
By the when it comes to the issue of mass immigration into Ireland I would fall under Jordan Peterson's daughter's idea of "Woke Right".
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Which is?

SwordOfStZip said:
There is more to the term also I think than "someone of the Right who Zionist Jews have a problem with" (which is how I have anecdotal that a lot of people who are not "White Nationalists" have come to think it means).
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I don't know what you mean
 
By the way, I just googled Candace Owens & woke right and the first link I clicked on was these two Jews kvetching about antisemitism -


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZYl5L4M_co

It's the same when Gad Saad dresses up as a woke leftist (as per roc's previous avatar), all they care about is antisemitism
 
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