Origins Thread

Professor

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Go easy Tiger! A great post . . . Amazing how we look for and get definitive answers from 350 million years ago!

I'm in need of brushing up on the details etc etc - The certainties Vs uncertainties

One can see why Evolution is popular belief system in lieu of other substantial theories.
Simply put, the design & stuff which make modern humans was in existence and constituting the make-up of mammalian life forms for a hundred million years before the appearance of man, who comprised of the same biology.
Environmental conditions over such an extended period would have had huge impacts on all the earthly life, leading to changes in their forms.
 
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clarke-connolly

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Tiger

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I got a lot of respect for Dawkins when he did eventually come out and call this Gender Bull-Shit as Bull-Shit !

He was a bit slow in doing so but got there in the end ~ ~ Takes a bit of courage because some of these Trans-Nutters and their crazy backers are crazy enough to try to kill you !

It’s certainly one of the smarter utterances from him.

It also highlights the current state of this ‘prominent’ atheists association in the US.
 

jpc

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It’s certainly one of the smarter utterances from him.

It also highlights the current state of this ‘prominent’ atheists association in the US.
Shouldn't it be rename "Wokists association:?
Looks like the association are trying to broaden their relevance/appeal/ market share in a competitive market for pseudo religious beliefs.
 

Tiger

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Shouldn't it be rename "Wokists association:?
Looks like the association are trying to broaden their relevance/appeal/ market share in a competitive market for pseudo religious beliefs.
I don’t know anything about them, but I imagine so.

The cancer of gender ideology has permeated almost every organisation.
 

Tiger

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@PlunkettsGhost @it_is_what_it_is Are any of you familiar with HGT?

One of the many challenges to Darwinian evolution is something called 'Horizontal Gene Transfer'.

Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT) exposes a serious flaw in the Darwinian framework. Unlike the simplistic 'tree of life' narrative, where species are said to evolve gradually through incremental genetic changes inherited from ancestors, HGT shows that organisms can acquire entirely new traits almost overnight by directly sharing genetic material across species. This isn't evolution by slow, random mutations and natural selection—it’s more like genetic engineering on a cosmic scale. HGT undermines the tidy, linear story Darwinists have been peddling, revealing a far messier and more complex reality that their dogma struggles to account for.

A notable paper addressing these challenges is "Horizontal Gene Transfer in Evolution: Facts and Challenges" by Luis Boto, published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences in 2010.


In this paper, Boto discusses how HGT complicates the classical tree-like representation of evolutionary relationships by introducing genetic material across different species and even domains. This horizontal exchange can lead to rapid acquisition of new traits, contrasting with the gradualism central to Darwinian theory. Boto argues that the prevalence of HGT necessitates a reevaluation of the neo-Darwinian paradigm, suggesting the integration of HGT into a more comprehensive evolutionary framework.

When we see genetic material moving with purpose and precision across species boundaries, bypassing the supposed randomness of Darwinian processes, it begs the question: is this the result of an external intelligence? Such an idea explains the intricate, designed appearance of HGT better than the current evolutionary framework, which struggles to reconcile this phenomenon within its naturalistic assumptions
 
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Tiger

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@clarke-connolly - in response to this post on the spam thread.

“ Is Dawkins all that smart really ? !

Didn't Darwin already do the heavy lifting in Dawkins speciality ? !”

It’s true to say that Richard Dawkins has hitched his entire reputation to Darwinism, but in doing so, he has tied himself to a sinking ship. His unwillingness to address decades of scientific challenges to the theory—challenges he conveniently ignores—has done more to undermine his credibility than to bolster the Darwinian framework he so fervently defends.

Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, once heralded as the final word on the origins and development of life, has been undermined by the very science that once championed it. Darwin painted a picture of slow, gradual changes giving rise to all the diversity we see today, a "tree of life" branching endlessly upward and outward. Yet, time and again, reality refuses to conform to his Victorian fantasies.

Take, for instance, his claim that the fossil record would reveal a multitude of transitional forms—proof of his gradualist vision. What we find instead is the abrupt appearance of fully formed species, most famously during the Cambrian Explosion, with little evidence of the painstaking evolutionary steps Darwin imagined. This phenomenon isn’t a minor oversight; it’s a direct challenge to the supposed slow march of evolution. Darwin’s defenders, unable to produce the transitions he predicted, resort to vague excuses about “gaps” in the fossil record.

Then there’s Darwin’s misunderstanding of inheritance. He believed in a “blending” model, where offspring would inherit a mixture of traits from their parents. This was dead wrong. Mendel’s work, ignored during Darwin’s lifetime, revealed that traits are passed down through discrete units—genes. Had Darwin understood this, he might have realized that blending would dilute advantageous traits out of existence rather than enhance them.

Darwin’s so-called "tree of life," where species evolve in neat, branching patterns, has also been shattered by modern discoveries. Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT), where genetic material is shared across species—even across entirely different domains of life—reduces the tree to a tangled web. Bacteria, for example, can acquire resistance genes from their neighbors, completely bypassing the gradual accumulation of mutations Darwin envisioned. If life operates more like a genetic free-for-all than a slow, upward climb, what does that say about Darwin’s model?

And what about the lack of transitional fossils? Darwin suggested that evolution proceeds through slow, continuous change, yet the fossil record stubbornly refuses to cooperate. To explain away this glaring problem, evolutionary theorists devised the concept of "punctuated equilibrium." This idea proposes that species remain stable for long periods and then change rapidly, supposedly too quickly to leave behind transitional forms. But this smacks more of an excuse than a scientific explanation, conveniently sweeping the fossil gaps under the rug instead of addressing the core issue: Darwin’s gradualism simply doesn’t hold up.

Complex traits like the eye or the bacterial flagellum pose another insurmountable problem. Darwin argued that such features must arise through countless, incremental steps, each offering a survival advantage. But modern science has revealed that certain systems are irreducibly complex—they require multiple interdependent parts to function. Remove just one, and the whole system fails. How could such intricate mechanisms evolve gradually if they are useless until fully formed?

Even altruism in nature challenges Darwin’s theory. If survival is a ruthless competition, as he claimed, why do we see organisms sacrificing themselves for others? The simplistic idea that natural selection only favors selfishness falls apart when faced with the complexity of cooperative behaviors in nature. These traits point to something deeper than Darwin’s blind struggle for existence.

Darwin’s theory, upheld as dogma for over a century, is crumbling under the weight of its own contradictions. Far from providing the “final answer” to the origins of life, it looks increasingly like a relic of outdated 19th-century thinking. The modern discoveries that refute his gradualist model demand not just tweaks to his theory but a wholesale reconsideration of the forces at work in the natural world.
 
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Tiger

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If Dawkins thinks Medhi Hasan is a Sophisticated Respected Journalist ~ Then I respectively suggest that Richard Dawkins failed ~ The Intelligence Test right there !

@clarke-connolly

In response to this quote above…

We must also remember his trips on Epstein’s private jet too. Not a great show of discernment.

The reality is that Dawkins has become an irrelevance in the real scientific debate on evolution, clinging to outdated ideas while modern biology moves beyond him. Instead, he’s a grifter, debating school kids and easy targets on YouTube, offering a spectacle for the masses but no genuine intellectual contribution.

Richard Dawkins, clinging to Darwinism like a lifeline, has reduced the grandeur of creation to nothing more than a selfish gene dance. In The Selfish Gene, he champions a view of evolution as a cutthroat contest between genes, ignoring the deeper complexities of life—like epigenetics and horizontal gene transfer—that render his reductionist narrative laughable.

He dismisses the concept of Intelligent Design as nothing more than pseudoscience, but this is pure intellectual cowardice, offering no real engagement with its legitimate critique of the theory of evolution (much like his loyal, illiterate followers). His overconfidence in Darwinism, despite the growing evidence against it, leaves him blind to the scientific challenges that modern biology presents.
 

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@Myles O'Reilly, this video should be right up your street. It’s an hour and twenty two minutes long and choc of complex scientific jargon. 👍



View: https://youtu.be/DT0TP_Ng4gA?feature=shared


Denis Noble is a distinguished British physiologist and systems biologist, renowned for his pioneering contributions to cardiac physiology and evolutionary biology. In 1960, he developed the first mathematical model of the heart's electrical activity, which became a cornerstone of computational biology. A Fellow of the Royal Society and a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, Noble has served as President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences and received multiple honorary doctorates. As a leading advocate for systems biology, he challenges reductionist views, including the central dogma of molecular biology, emphasizing the importance of feedback mechanisms and epigenetics. His influential book The Music of Life and his critiques of gene-centric evolution have reshaped debates on biological complexity and evolution.

In this video he challenges the traditional gene-centric view of evolution, notably popularized by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene." Noble argues that this perspective is overly reductionist and doesn't account for the complex interactions within biological systems. He emphasizes the importance of systems biology, which considers the intricate networks of genes, proteins, cells, and their environments, suggesting that understanding these interactions is crucial for a comprehensive grasp of evolutionary processes.
Noble also critiques the central dogma of molecular biology—the idea that genetic information flows in a linear manner from DNA to RNA to proteins. He presents evidence of feedback mechanisms and epigenetic factors that can influence gene expression and inheritance, indicating a more dynamic and bidirectional flow of information. This perspective challenges the traditional view that genetic information is solely passed down through DNA sequences, highlighting the role of epigenetic modifications and environmental interactions in evolution.

Furthermore, Noble discusses the Weismann barrier, which posits a strict separation between germ cells (responsible for reproduction) and somatic cells (constituting the body), suggesting that changes in somatic cells don't affect the germ line. He argues that this barrier is not absolute, pointing to evidence that environmental factors and epigenetic changes in somatic cells can influence the germ line, thereby affecting evolutionary outcomes.
In summary, Noble advocates for a more integrative approach to biology, one that moves beyond the gene-centric view to incorporate the complexities of biological systems, epigenetic factors, and environmental interactions. This broader perspective aims to provide a more comprehensive understanding of the mechanisms driving biological developments.
 

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That's quit interesting Tiger, you know for what its worth I wrote a little about this in my latest book. I was making the point about the vaccines, that instead of it being 'only genetic modification of RNA not DNA, and hence not making you genetically modified' I pointed out that in fact it isn't as clean a separation as some suggest. RNA and DNA are very closely linked and there is in fact pathyways for RNA to come back and influence DNA, which makes the mRNA vaccines even more of a disaster.
 

Tiger

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That's quit interesting Tiger, you know for what its worth I wrote a little about this in my latest book. I was making the point about the vaccines, that instead of it being 'only genetic modification of RNA not DNA, and hence not making you genetically modified' I pointed out that in fact it isn't as clean a separation as some suggest. RNA and DNA are very closely linked and there is in fact pathyways for RNA to come back and influence DNA, which makes the mRNA vaccines even more of a disaster.

That's an interesting point, and you’re right that the link between RNA and DNA isn’t as clear-cut as some people think. There’s definitely evidence that RNA can influence DNA, like through reverse transcription, where RNA can actually end up being written back into the genome. This makes the whole ‘it’s just RNA, not DNA’ argument way more complicated.
 

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@AN2

For anyone who is interested........the video called "Intelligent Design Is Complete Nonsense" (which Jimbob posted today on his shambles of a thread) is an exercise in intellectual complacency, substituting caricature and conformity for serious critique.

The hosts, cloistered in their echo chamber of shared biases, fail to mount anything resembling a substantive challenge to Intelligent Design (ID). Their arguments, rife with misrepresentation and fallacious reasoning, betray not only a misunderstanding of ID but also a reluctance to engage its core tenets. In other words, something right up James' street.

Foremost among their errors is the straw man fallacy, a classic tactic of the ideologue. Rather than addressing ID as it is—a disciplined inference based on observable patterns of complexity—they reduce it to “creationism in disguise,” a rhetorical slight designed to dismiss rather than debate. Consider, for instance, Michael Behe’s work on the bacterial flagellum, which he describes as irreducibly complex—a structure whose interdependent parts defy piecemeal evolution. Instead of grappling with this argument, the video opts for hand-waving and ridicule, which may amuse the uninformed but does nothing to address the implications of specified complexity.

The presenters then stumble into the trap of a false dichotomy, insisting that discrediting ID ipso facto vindicates evolutionary theory. This is the hallmark of a defensive intellectual position—shielding Darwinian dogma from scrutiny by defining its challengers as unworthy of consideration. Yet Intelligent Design does not rest on exposing flaws in evolutionary theory alone; it stands on its own merits, drawing on evidence such as the digital code embedded in DNA or the fine-tuning of the physical constants of the universe. That such evidence is ignored in favor of cheap binary oppositions speaks volumes about the intellectual poverty of the video’s approach.

Perhaps most egregiously, the video engages in equivocation, wielding the word “science” like a cudgel while redefining it to suit their preordained conclusions. By insisting that science must exclude any consideration of intelligent causation, they transform it from a method of inquiry into a straitjacket for naturalistic dogma. This sleight of hand evades the real question: does the evidence support design? Stephen Meyer has pointed out that ID employs the same inferential reasoning used in forensic science or archaeology—disciplines that routinely recognize intelligent causes without requiring supernatural explanations. But the video’s hosts, rather than confronting this methodology, prefer to hide behind semantic games.

Their reliance on appeals to authority further underscores the vacuity of their critique. They invoke the Kitzmiller v. Dover ruling as if a legal decision could determine scientific truth. This lazy appeal is typical of those who mistake consensus for correctness, as though the pronouncements of judges or academic gatekeepers could replace empirical evidence. It is worth noting that many of ID’s critics rely not on data, but on courtroom victories and institutional inertia to defend their position—a damning admission of the weakness of their case.

The dynamic between the two presenters is, at best, a feedback loop of self-congratulation, and at worst, an Orwellian exercise in groupthink. Neither challenges the other’s assertions, and both seem oblivious to their own biases. This insular approach creates an echo chamber where dissenting views are mocked rather than addressed, and where the search for truth is subordinated to the comfort of conformity. By refusing to engage with ID’s strongest arguments—such as the specified complexity of biological systems or the improbability of unguided processes—they render their critique a hollow exercise in self-affirmation.

Ultimately, the video’s greatest failure is its refusal to confront the positive claims of ID. Rather than grappling with the mathematical improbabilities of blind evolution or the profound implications of information theory, the presenters resort to ad hominem attacks and dismissive rhetoric. This is not science; it is propaganda masquerading as critical thought. A genuine debate would require acknowledging the limits of materialism and the growing body of evidence that points to design—arguments championed not by zealots, but by rigorous thinkers like Meyer, Behe, and Berlinski.

In conclusion, "Intelligent Design Is Complete Nonsense" is a vapid exercise in groupthink, more interested in preaching to the choir than engaging with reality. Its failures are not merely intellectual but moral, as it seeks to suppress genuine inquiry in favor of comforting dogma. If the hosts were truly committed to science, they would welcome debate, not avoid it. But as it stands, their critique is less an argument than a confession of their own intellectual insecurity.

Contrast that to the video I posted above from Denis Noble. One of the great scientists of the past 50 years.
 
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Myles O'Reilly

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That post is far too long. Where do you think you are, Notre Dame Divinity school?
 

Tiger

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That post is far too long. Where do you think you are, Notre Dame Divinity school?

Just for you Myles….here’s a condensed version.

The video fails as a critique, relying on misrepresentation, logical fallacies, and an echo chamber of unchallenged biases rather than engaging with the substantive claims of Intelligent Design (ID). By caricaturing ID as mere "creationism," dismissing its arguments without addressing evidence like irreducible complexity or specified information and appealing to legal rulings and consensus rather than data, the hosts reveal their unwillingness to confront the real debate. Their reliance on rhetorical dismissal and a rigid naturalistic definition of science exposes their critique as shallow propaganda, more interested in reinforcing dogma than fostering open inquiry or serious dialogue.

Even better, here’s a version for 5 year olds......

The video is like two kids saying, "That idea is dumb!" without really explaining why. They make fun of the idea that the world shows signs of being designed, but they don’t talk about the actual reasons people believe it—like how some things in nature are super complicated and fit together perfectly, like puzzle pieces. Instead, they just say, "Everyone else thinks it's wrong, so it must be!" That’s like saying your drawing is bad just because someone else said so, without even looking at it. They also never ask each other hard questions, so it’s more like they’re just agreeing with each other to feel smart instead of really trying to understand.

If you’d prefer some child-like drawings to explain, then let me know.
 
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Tiger

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@SwordOfStZip

The conflation of Intelligent Design (ID) with Theistic Evolution (TE) reflects a modernist distortion that undermines both reason and faith. ID recognizes evidence of purposeful design in the universe—patterns and complexities that point to intelligence rather than randomness. TE, on the other hand, compromises Christian doctrine by attempting to harmonize Darwinian evolution (which is a dead concept) with belief in God. In doing so, it reduces God to a mere spectator of blind, death-driven processes, rendering Him unnecessary.

As you pointed out, TE is not a new idea but rather a rehashing of ancient materialist speculations, such as those of Anaximander, who imagined life evolving from simpler forms. In the 19th century, these godless theories were repackaged in scientific garb to provide secularists a means of discarding the Creator altogether. Tragically, many Christians, eager to appear “enlightened” and “scientific,” adopted TE without recognizing its incompatibility with the faith.

Christians must confront TE for what it is: a surrender to materialist ideology that replaces divine revelation with a hollow accommodation to the spirit of the age. It is not science but a betrayal of both reason and faith. As St. Thomas Aquinas taught, faith and reason cannot contradict each other. Intelligent Design, while not a theological framework, at least aligns with the evidence of purpose and intention in creation and offers a counterpoint to the nihilistic randomness of Darwinism.

We must recognize that Darwinian evolution itself is at a crossroads. As biologist Denis Noble and others have highlighted (he says that "Neo-Darwinism is dead"), the traditional neo-Darwinian framework is increasingly untenable in light of advances in fields like epigenetics, systems biology, and the understanding of information in DNA. Darwin’s mechanism of random mutation and natural selection can no longer account for the complexity, adaptability, and interdependence observed in life. As this framework crumbles, a vacuum has emerged—a space where new ideas and paradigms are taking root.
 
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Mad as Fish

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@clarke-connolly - in response to this post on the spam thread.

“ Is Dawkins all that smart really ? !

Didn't Darwin already do the heavy lifting in Dawkins speciality ? !”

It’s true to say that Richard Dawkins has hitched his entire reputation to Darwinism, but in doing so, he has tied himself to a sinking ship. His unwillingness to address decades of scientific challenges to the theory—challenges he conveniently ignores—has done more to undermine his credibility than to bolster the Darwinian framework he so fervently defends.

Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, once heralded as the final word on the origins and development of life, has been undermined by the very science that once championed it. Darwin painted a picture of slow, gradual changes giving rise to all the diversity we see today, a "tree of life" branching endlessly upward and outward. Yet, time and again, reality refuses to conform to his Victorian fantasies.

Take, for instance, his claim that the fossil record would reveal a multitude of transitional forms—proof of his gradualist vision. What we find instead is the abrupt appearance of fully formed species, most famously during the Cambrian Explosion, with little evidence of the painstaking evolutionary steps Darwin imagined. This phenomenon isn’t a minor oversight; it’s a direct challenge to the supposed slow march of evolution. Darwin’s defenders, unable to produce the transitions he predicted, resort to vague excuses about “gaps” in the fossil record.

Then there’s Darwin’s misunderstanding of inheritance. He believed in a “blending” model, where offspring would inherit a mixture of traits from their parents. This was dead wrong. Mendel’s work, ignored during Darwin’s lifetime, revealed that traits are passed down through discrete units—genes. Had Darwin understood this, he might have realized that blending would dilute advantageous traits out of existence rather than enhance them.

Darwin’s so-called "tree of life," where species evolve in neat, branching patterns, has also been shattered by modern discoveries. Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT), where genetic material is shared across species—even across entirely different domains of life—reduces the tree to a tangled web. Bacteria, for example, can acquire resistance genes from their neighbors, completely bypassing the gradual accumulation of mutations Darwin envisioned. If life operates more like a genetic free-for-all than a slow, upward climb, what does that say about Darwin’s model?

And what about the lack of transitional fossils? Darwin suggested that evolution proceeds through slow, continuous change, yet the fossil record stubbornly refuses to cooperate. To explain away this glaring problem, evolutionary theorists devised the concept of "punctuated equilibrium." This idea proposes that species remain stable for long periods and then change rapidly, supposedly too quickly to leave behind transitional forms. But this smacks more of an excuse than a scientific explanation, conveniently sweeping the fossil gaps under the rug instead of addressing the core issue: Darwin’s gradualism simply doesn’t hold up.

Complex traits like the eye or the bacterial flagellum pose another insurmountable problem. Darwin argued that such features must arise through countless, incremental steps, each offering a survival advantage. But modern science has revealed that certain systems are irreducibly complex—they require multiple interdependent parts to function. Remove just one, and the whole system fails. How could such intricate mechanisms evolve gradually if they are useless until fully formed?

Even altruism in nature challenges Darwin’s theory. If survival is a ruthless competition, as he claimed, why do we see organisms sacrificing themselves for others? The simplistic idea that natural selection only favors selfishness falls apart when faced with the complexity of cooperative behaviors in nature. These traits point to something deeper than Darwin’s blind struggle for existence.

Darwin’s theory, upheld as dogma for over a century, is crumbling under the weight of its own contradictions. Far from providing the “final answer” to the origins of life, it looks increasingly like a relic of outdated 19th-century thinking. The modern discoveries that refute his gradualist model demand not just tweaks to his theory but a wholesale reconsideration of the forces at work in the natural world.
One or two points on the above.

HGT is an interesting idea, do you have any examples of where it might have happened in more advanced life forms than bacteria?

I think it unfair to be too critical of Darwin himself, he was expounding new ideas and faced much criticism at the time. If his ideas have proved incorrect then fair enough, that's science after all, but he has always struck me as a modest fellow who was working to the best of his knowledge, which was a great deal more limited then than it is now. As it turned out, he created a whole new area of science, his contribution is not to be dismissed lightly.

Having said that I would agree entirely that we need much more than Darwinism to explain evolution and the complexity of modern life forms and even with concepts such as HGT we are still probably only scratching the surface.

I have read that altruism may be explained through game theory and doesn't immedietly contradict the notion of the selfish gene.
 

Tiger

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That's the condensed version?!!!!
Ah c’mon Myles, there was literally a version for 5 year olds! 😂

How about this…

The video is an unscientific discussion where two poorly informed people merely affirm their shared belief against Intelligent Design without providing any evidence to support their claims.

Which is presumably why it appeals to James. It's for poorly educated people, who don't read books or know anything and anything.
 

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