Ukraine.

[Wolf]

All sovereign states are out for themselves. I'm not arguing the case for the moral superiority of the Russian State. My point is that the US state is even worse than that, which is quite an achievement. Are Russian people in general morally superior to Americans? On balance, definitely. The cancer of CRT, rampant corporatism, technocracy, weebism and moral degeneracy that is destroying the US has not taken root there. And it's my hope noe of it never does.

It's not that I think Russia is amazing. I support Russia in the sense that it is a necessary cantilever and check to American imperialism, and cancerous Americanism. It is a bastion the progressive left cannot touch.

+100
Well said.

 

[Fishalt]

In fact, I wouldn't have any issue with any of the panoply of demented, self-indulgent and deranged shit the left side of the aisle tugs its micropenis to on the daily at all if they'd simply stop demanding that I conform to it, and trying to define what is and isn't acceptable speech, behaviour, thought, and action.

You do you do.

But try and make me do you, and I'll fight you til the death.

 

[Fishalt]

As discussed, Russia has its own dire issues and is definetely not a role model.

On the whole, I look at this whole thing as what it is, geopolitical maneuvering. This "culture war" stuff is the same kind window of window dressing that we have seen in earlier conflict, such as ideology or religion.

But it's always been a land grab for land, people and resources, or denying it to the adversary. It always will be, and it will always be sold to people as some kind of moral crusade to make them swallow it.

I don't even disagree. I would not want to live in Russia outside of a large wooden hut separated from my fellow man entirely. What I am concerned with is the balance of Geopolitical power. I do not want Imperialist America to have free rein to run roughshod over the entire fucking planet and institute, by force and coercion, a version of society and more broadly sociology that is depraved, irrational, and insane and serves a bunch of fetish-heavy finaciers and dynastical elites. And they'd fucking do it too, if they could.

There must always be checks and balances.

I want to live in a world filled with different people with different ideas and cultures.

I do want to live in a grey, homogenised universe that is the manifestation of limp-dick weeb's utopian fantasy.

 

[Fishalt]

I could not agree more.

However that can't mean that Russia, or any other country, can do the same either. That's why I'm totally against Russia deciding to inflict such misery on a smaller weaker country, which is no better morally than the humanitarian disaster the US inflicted on Iraq (and the ME in general). Fuck these proxy wars.

And if it were as simple as that, I'd agree, but it isn't. It's complicated. Obviously all wars are immoral. But they're a feature of existence. How moral was the bombing of Dresden, for example? The US state has its tentacles all through Ukraine. There's a huge amount of Ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Russia simply cannot allow this to endure and expand. Ukraine joining NATO would quite literally be an existential threat to the Russia state. It would be like if the Soviet Union still existed and Mexico decided to join it.

The US has no business being in Ukraine. It's the other end of the world. It's not their backyard, it's Russia's. What America needs to do is basically fuck right off. The version of NATO that Russia agreed to was not the mission-creep monstrosity that is really just an extension of US imperialism that exists now, and the world has fundamentally changed since the wall fell. Russia just isn't the imperialist threat it once was since the collapse of the Soviet Union. It will never return to that level of territorial control, or power. I'm not worried about Russia swallowing up the world.

But America? Yeah, that's a different deal.

 

[Mad as Fish]

Can we get on to organ trafficking now?

Sure, why not -

Profiting from War and Death: The Organ Harvesting Business in Ukraine - Algora Blog

Updated: May 26, 2023 On the camera of the Ukrainian who was killed by the Ukrainian https://t.me/RtrDonetsk/17723 we found another video. In search of his friend, he witnessed an unusual operation. We analyzed this video for a day, attracted specialists and that's what we found: 1. Doctors are...

www.algora.com

LPR colonel claims notorious Dutch illegal organ harvester arrived in Ukraine’s Bakhmut region

LPR colonel Vitaly Kiselyov claimed that a notorious Dutch illegal organ harvester had arrived in Ukraine’s Bakhmut region

euroweeklynews.com

And here's one from your favorite source, can hardly argue with X now can we, -


View: https://twitter.com/TheChronicler13/status/1661255390217240576

 

[Mad as Fish]

As discussed, Russia has its own dire issues and is definitely not a role model.

On the whole, I look at this whole thing as what it is, geopolitical maneuvering. This "culture war" stuff is the same kind of moral window dressing that we have seen in earlier conflicts, such as ideology or religion.

But it's always been a land grab for land, people and resources, or denying it to the adversary. It always will be, and it will always be sold to people as some kind of moral crusade to make them swallow it.

Where is a desirable global role model to be found? There isn't one, that is because the situation of mankind is constantly changing and evolving due, mainly, to technology, and it always has been since we learnt to tame and utilise fire back in the caveman days.

So we are left with a situation where there is no single country or political system we can hold aloft and say this what all of mankind should strive for. Yet there are certain first principles which were established early on and codified by the Greeks, amongst others, which include such notions as equality, justice democracy and so on, and it is these rather abstract laws of living that we see being abandoned by modern empires such as America, China, Europe, and Russia to certain extent.

To simply back one side and say all others are evil is the stance of the simpleton, or of those who wish to manipulate and intimidate others through physical violence or subjugation of free thought and expression, be it by law or peer pressure.

 

[Fishalt]

Yes. But NATO is what Ukraine wanted after 2014. The wishes of smaller states matter.

Russia could have chosen any other path than war. It could have maintained the treaties it signed with Ukraine. By invading in 2014 it accelerated Ukraines movement to the West. It lost the battle of ideas and values with the Ukrainian people and did a land grab. The Ukrainians rejected the Russian World. They still do.

So Russia tried to impose itself by force. No better than the USA who tried to impose values of "freedom and democracy" in Iraq by force. They also argued that Iraq was an "existential threat".

It is quite a bit different to the Iraq war. There was absolutely no precedent that made any sense for the invasion of Iraq. It was a total debacle. Ukraine is not like that. Ukraine has a huge ethnic Russian population that has, despite what western media says about this, been vilified and resource-starved by the Ukrainian state under the stewardship of NATO. Lot of dead citizens, lots of dead kids.

The US backed a far-right coup in Ukraine in 2014. It just did. Yanukovych was duly elected and unduly sent fleeing to Russia by far-right goons supplied and funded by NATO under the direction of people like Nuland. This isn't a conspiracy, and really happened. Yanukovych was not a tyrannical despot like Saddam, and he had majority support. This is in fact what annoys me most about your side of the aisle--the refusal to acknowledge this. You people never think to wonder where groups like Azov etc got all their money, because it sure as shit wasn't from the Ukrainian economy. Or how this colour revolution started. Ukraine was then about the poorest country in the region. The truth is, these groups were sent billions in funding by the US state.

Now, you might argue that Yanukovych was a Russian plant. Certainly he played favourites with Russia, but why would he not? They were the superpower on his doorstep. And maybe he was, but what of it? That's not America's business. America has no right to police the world. Regardless, his illegal deposition sparked a civil war in Ukraine. That's really where we are at with all this. The war in Ukraine is unlike the war in Iraq fundamentally for this reason. What we're seeing is a tug of war between two superpowers over a territory filled with people with different desires for different visions of a future operating under the protective umbrella of different superpowers. The war in Iraq was just a straight-up invasion based literally on nothing.

 

[Fishalt]

But it was. Not because of Yanukovych. Not because he was turfed out of office.

But when Russia invaded. Because the US was a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum.

And have you read it?

Read articles 2 and 3.

Who violated it first?

 

[Fishalt]

Russia.

In what way?

The US backed and funded a coup in 2014, violating the second statute at a bare minimum. Remember when the US promised Russia that NATO would not expand 'One inch Eastwards'? They lied then, they lied in 2014.

 

[Wolf]

It's very hard to argue

But you do it all the time.

I'm afraid.

We know.

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

Everyone now knows you're a pervert/pedo Charlotte so I don't need to keep repeating it.
New members will be informed.

Do you want Declan to shut down the forum for everyone? Everyone also does not know that- there is no evidence that he is.

Mod action.

 

[Wolf]

Do you want Declan to shut down the forum for everyone? Everyone also does not know that- there is no evidence that he is.

Mod action.

Anyone who was on political Irish knows what it is.
Quit protecting it, you seen what happened to Val when he did that.

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

Anyone who was on political Irish knows what it is.
Quit protecting it, you seen what happened to Val when he did that.

Take it up with him in pms.

 

[bormotello]

meanwhile

Russians got richer last year even as the war in Ukraine raged on, while the US and Europe lost trillions of dollars, UBS reported.
Russia added $600 billion of total wealth, the Swiss bank found in its annual Global Wealth Report, published Tuesday.
The number of Russian millionaires also rose by about 56,000 to 408,000 in 2022, while the number of ultra-high-net-worth individuals — people worth over $50 million — jumped by nearly 4,500.
But the US lost more wealth than any other country last year, shedding $5.9 trillion, while North America and Europe combined got $10.9 trillion poorer, UBS reported.

Russia got richer even as the war in Ukraine raged on last year, while the West shed trillions of dollars of wealth

UBS's annual wealth report showed Russia added $600 billion of wealth in 2022, with the number of millionaires rising by around 56,000.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Mad as Fish]

Can we get on to organ trafficking now?

We are all waiting....

Your move next.

 

[Mad as Fish]

View: https://twitter.com/albir2024/status/1692193201505898775?t=ACHiIZBvQZVH-ylcZLSb2A&s=19

Are they still at it? Why don't the the just get on and finish the job? It's been over a month now.

 

[Wolf]

Are they still at it? Why don't the the just get on and finish the job? It's been over a month now.

I'm really offended by the so called spring offensive.
Zitler should be done under the trades description act.

 

[SeekTheFairLand]

Robotyne? Isn’t that like the first place they hit in the counteroffensive.. back when was it? June or something? Are they still stuck there? God this offensive is just so dull…

 

[Wolf]

Robotyne? Isn’t that like the first place they hit in the counteroffensive.. back when was it? June or something? Are they still stuck there? God this offensive is just so dull…

Spring 2024.....just you wait.

 

[Wolf]

I could not agree more.

which is no better morally than the humanitarian disaster the US inflicted on Iraq (and the ME in general). Fuck these proxy wars.

When we see your 1800 posts condemning America we might give you a small bit of credibility.
Until then, you are what you are.

 

[Wolf]

Yea, you better get some sleep alright, Charlottesweb.
Hasn't been a great day for you, downright embarrassing at times.

 

[Mad as Fish]

Robotyne? Isn’t that like the first place they hit in the counteroffensive.. back when was it? June or something? Are they still stuck there? God this offensive is just so dull…

What is becoming clear is that the Ukies just haven't the might to smash through anything, it's just pecking at the sides rather than forcing its way across the territory it keeps claiming is going to fall to the multitude of game changers that NATO has shipped in.

 

[Fishalt]

The precipitating event was Yanukovych's decision not to sign the EU Association Agreement. Remember...Ukraine's own parliament had overwhelmingly approved the Agreement with the EU. It's widely acknowledged that this rejection was from Russian pressure.

It's very hard to argue that the events thereafter were a coup. Normally that's carried out by a powerful civilian or military faction, that has sufficient power to do so. Iran (establishing the Shah) and Chile (Allende) come to mind.

But when hundreds of thousands take to the streets and battle the State? That's an old fashioned revolution.

You can continue to repeat this "coup" cope but it won't wash with me I'm afraid.

According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters), between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[154][155][156] The biggest support for the protest was found in Kyiv (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[154][157] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% were from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.[158]

Euromaiden never had majority support.

At the time, there were over 45M people in Ukraine. Those involved in Maidan are estimated to have numbered between 300-800K. Let's meet in the middle somewhere and say it was 500K. That would be 1.1% of the population.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/02/12/who-are-the-protesters-in-ukraine/
Yanukovych was duly and fairly elected. At the time, even the Guardian reported this.

ttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-president-election

Maidan was fomented mostly under the direction of the US-backed Svoboda.

https://voxukraine.org/en/denial-of-the-obvious-far-right-in-maidan-protests-and-their-danger-today
https://jacobin.com/2018/03/trump-national-endowment-democracy-foreign-policy

US senator John Mcain visited during the crisis and offered US support to Svoboda

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause

Here's Vicky Nuland handing out sandwiches to Maidan protesters:

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-protests-nuland-yanukovych/25197108.html

And then there's that leaked phone call....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

So no, M1A2. The version of events you have been told is not historically accurate, and yes, the US and 'Fuck the EU' Vicky Nuland helped orchestrate the coup in 2014 utilising a far-right group with Nazi ties. And they this this for the benefit of the US empire. I cannot even begin to imagine how you square this with your political values and ideology. I suspect you haven't really thought it through.

 

[Fishalt]

This is entirely inaccurate.

We are just not going to agree on this. Your version is as warped as the "biolabs" story.

I have used left--indeed, far left, MSM sources and primary evidence. Those stats in P1 come from wikipedia, which seems to be your favourite source and regular go-to. Phone calls, footage. My sources are not inaccurate. If this conversation was happening in any other context, you would in fact vociferously defend them. Moreoever just saying it's warped isn't a refutation, nor an argument. You don't just get to take a punt on all this. Explain why it's wrong.

 

[AUL LAD]

The precipitating event was Yanukovych's decision not to sign the EU Association Agreement. Remember...Ukraine's own parliament had overwhelmingly approved the Agreement with the EU. It's widely acknowledged that this rejection was from Russian pressure.

It's very hard to argue that the events thereafter were a coup. Normally that's carried out by a powerful civilian or military faction, that has sufficient power to do so. Iran (establishing the Shah) and Chile (Allende) come to mind.

But when hundreds of thousands take to the streets and battle the State? That's an old fashioned revolution.

You can continue to repeat this "coup" cope but it won't wash with me I'm afraid.

you have to examine the facts THE FACTS .
you can listen today and any day to Victoria Nuland picking the present USA/Ukrainian government in a recorded conversation with USA ambassador to the Ukraine Geoffry Pyatt .
the title for u tube is FUCK THE EU SPEECH by Victoria Nuland .
she confirmed the conversation by apologizing to the EU .
Anglea Merkel said this was outrageous and unacceptable however we understand the destroying of the ONLY democratically elected government was not outrageous to ms Merkle or following the americian coup the installing of a US government un elected by anyone --- no it appears Angela was just concerned with the language.
you then move on to the conversation between the rabidly anti Russian Estonian prime minister Urmas Paet and EU foreign minister Catherine Ashton where he states according to his intelligence services ---the people and police murdered in the Midan were murdered by the snipers of CIA backed OPPOSITION .
Ashton weakly states "" somebody should look into that "".
this war is a long time in the works and Victoria Nuland has been under sectary of state under 4 americian presidents except under Trump and the Ukraine was her pet project in that time, you must understand she was present in the Midan with john mc cain when the coup took place as they wished to enjoy their handiwork .
victoria nulands ethnic cousins caused a coup in Russia on march 8th 1917 .
Funded by Jacob Schiff of new york who gave Leon Trotsky another cousin 22 million to kill and rob the czar=== result the destruction and robbery of russia and the deaths of 100 million approx.
this is told in a book which cannot be published in the west by a Nobel prizewinner --the book is called 200 years together .
i was in Russia with my wife in the early 1990s when Putin came to power and an estimated 11million extra people died then of starvation and suicide due to the oligarchs take over of Russia,
again ethnic cousins of nuland and now again their insatiable disgusting greed and murderous trade has started another war to break up Russia and rob it again but THEY OPENLY STATE first we must have REGIME CHANGE == the death of Putin the man who saved Russia from these diabolical evil bastards who would murder in the millions for sport --thats the first order of business .

 

[Fishalt]

Having viewed Ishchenkos twitter feed, I very much doubt the above.

I have explained the nature of the revolution that took place....and it was certainly not a coup.
Now within any revolution there are many entities jockeying for position even as they battle the State. That's just plain opportunism on the part of some, trying to coopt the movement to their own ends. The Republicans in the Spanish Civil war were rife with this.

But to any extent that the far right was involved, it didn't translate into power or any legitimacy at the ballot box. If they were there with intent, they failed.

Again this feels like a "biolab" type hoax....a self serving exaggeration not borne out by what eventually occurred.

M1A2, this is why your side of the aisle is so hated. You don't just get to scream 'conspiracy theory'! Whenever the facts don't support your argument and write the whole exchange off as a win. Here, you're totally going off-topic rather than address the evidence--which really isn't refutable. The intelligent and honourable thing to do would be to simply admit that this conflict is complicated, and that it's more or less a civil war with two competing superpowers backing opposite sides. I don't care what anything 'Feels' like. Facts don't care about your feelings, and don't suddenly become mutable because of them. The reason you feel rather than know is that you have inside you an idiosyncratic, reactive bias.The problem with your mind is that you start from the default position that anything the left says is implicitly true. You're not objective. Years and years and years of being partisan, politically, ideologically, and algorithmically has brainwashed you, and rather face this and work beyond it, you simply retreat into denialism because this is psychologically more comforting and easier than admitting you've been duped and facing the fact that at the end of the day, you've never been as good analytically as you believed you were.

You are not unique in this. Indeed the vast majority of your ilk has the same problem.

 

[Wolf]

Having viewed Ishchenkos twitter feed......

Muhahahaha.......

 

[Declan]

World War 3 warning as Putin's Black Sea escalation could lead to NATO clash

Tensions in the Black Sea have undergone a significant escalation following Russia's unilateral withdrawal from a UN grain agreement in July.

www.express.co.uk

The focus now is to conjur up some bullshit to expand the war because the ukes are all done.

My bet is the the poles will be the first to get a nuke.

 

[Mad as Fish]

View: https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1692353588067270671?t=ougSUTcXahFIny9qWJFbNg&s=19

Which achieved what exactly?

 

[Wolf]

Which achieved what exactly?

Another 1,000 or so dead Ukrainians over the next day or two.

 

[Wolf]

Of course the terrorists in Washington aren't running their proxy war at all at all....right?

US approves sending F-16s to Ukraine from allies

The United States has approved sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine from Denmark and the Netherlands to defend against Russian forces as soon as pilot training is completed, a US official has said.

www.rte.ie

So next up there will be dead Ukrainians falling from the sky!

 

[Professor]

Of course the terrorists in Washington aren't running their proxy war at all at all....right?

US approves sending F-16s to Ukraine from allies

The United States has approved sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine from Denmark and the Netherlands to defend against Russian forces as soon as pilot training is completed, a US official has said.

www.rte.ie

So next up there will be dead Ukrainians falling from the sky!

Who would want to fly them? Old pilots with terminal cancer perhaps? From reading that article the situation looks ridiculous and a piss(pants) take for the Ukrainians . . .

. . . US officials have privately said that F-16 jets would have been of little help to Ukraine in its current counter-offensive and will not be a game changer when they eventually arrive given Russian air defence systems and contested skies over Ukraine.
Meanwhile, Russian officials said its forces have destroyed Ukrainian drones targeting Moscow and its Black Sea Fleet, the latest in a surge of attacks on the capital and the flashpoint waterway.

And RTE reports this stuff unchallenged, barking it out very seriously. it's pure black comedy

 

[bormotello]

I have explained the nature of the revolution that took place....and it was certainly not a coup.

if it was not a coup, then it was no need for CiA director to travel to Kiev as first US high-rank official

Why CIA Director Brennan Visited Kiev: In Ukraine The Covert War Has Begun

Ukraine is on the brink of civil war, Vladimir Putin has said, and he should know because the country is already in the midst of a covert intelligence war. Over the weekend, CIA director John Brennan travelled to Kiev, nobody knows exactly why, but some speculate that he intends to [...]

www.forbes.com

Nuland or somebody else from State Department could do a job

But to any extent that the far right was involved, it didn't translate into power or any legitimacy at the ballot box. If they were there with intent, they failed.

Ukrainian Nazis not even really tried to win a ballot box. US offered them a much better choice than waste time in powerless parliament
Democracy is religion for fools and real power belongs to deep state
This is why under the supervision of Avakov nazis started to take under their control police and secret services

 

[Mad as Fish]

The Russsians are clearly in dire trouble now.


View: https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1692342540270264474?t=fxov_fNK79KLeuPlMBscBw&s=19


The AFU still hasn't commited the bulk of its reserve either.

So when is Moscow going to fall?

 

[Wolf]

Hopefully when the much publicised Uki Nazi 'spring offensive' starts in spring 2024 the war will be over 'within 2 weeks' or something.

 

[Wolf]

So when is Moscow going to fall?

Next week.
The following week Zitler takes over the world.

 

[jpc]

Who would want to fly them? Old pilots with terminal cancer perhaps? From reading that article the situation looks ridiculous and a piss(pants) take for the Ukrainians . . .

. . . US officials have privately said that F-16 jets would have been of little help to Ukraine in its current counter-offensive and will not be a game changer when they eventually arrive given Russian air defence systems and contested skies over Ukraine.
Meanwhile, Russian officials said its forces have destroyed Ukrainian drones targeting Moscow and its Black Sea Fleet, the latest in a surge of attacks on the capital and the flashpoint waterway.

And RTE reports this stuff unchallenged, barking it out very seriously. it's pure black comedy

Really Terrible Explanations in this conflict.
Just narrative enforcers.
And black comedy is the way just like in Afghanistan it's going sadly for all the dead and maimed.

 

[Wolf]

I see Dame Enda has now taken to actually typing out the words it gets from Twatter and claiming them as its own.....and then linking the Twatter feed to it.......
Will we see it do that here I wonder?

 

[Wolf]

On cue.....like the needy little puppy it is.
Even uses the same Twatter links.
Here boy....

 

[Wolf]

FFS Wolf. You are so easily manipulated its frightening.

Sit, Booboo, Sit!
Now.....beg.....
There's the good boy.