Origins Thread

[Kangal]

So we're agreed. Science currently has no idea how the Universe came to be, outside of vague speculation

It's explained in great detail, backed up by particle physics.

We just do know yet what happened before the Big Bang.

As I said the key questions are around abiogenesis.

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

The Whale Tale - Part 3

Another claim to vestigial status, is that of the whale pelvic girdle, given that whales have no hind legs. However, serious biologists have put paid to the notion that that whale pubic/pelvic bone has no function:

"The pelvic girdle is highly reduced and only the remnants of a pubic bone remain. This short, rod-like bone is embedded in the lateral body musculature, oriented in a longitudinal direction. The bones do not attach to the vertebral column and are generally larger in the male than in the female, serving as an attachment for genital muscles."

"Male locomotor muscle and pelvic bones grew significantly faster than in females. High growth rates for visceral and reproductive organs in porpoises, relative to other mammals, may underlie their early maturation and support their intensive, annual reproductive schedule."

"Growth Patterns of most body components were similar in males and females, with the exception of axial muscle, abdominal muscle, and pelvic bones, for which values were higher in males, and liver, heart, intestines and mesenteric lymph node,for which values were higher in females."

These few examples clearly indicates that the pelvis has a more obvious role in the protection of male organs, specifically prostate, penis and testicles.

Another example illustrating the relative growth of pelvis in both male and female whales of sexual maturity, again illustrating a role for both in reproduction:

"The male reproductive tract and the pelvic bones, upon which it is anchored, grow at similarly high rates. The pelvic bones provide the skeletal origin for the crura of the broelastic penis of cetaceans. The high growth rates of the pelvic bones suggests that although these elements no longer provide support for hind limbs, they play an important role for support of the external genitalia."

"Contrarily, in males, the axial, abdominal and total muscle, and pelvic bones grow at higher rates than in females. These sexual dimorphic ontogenetic allometries seem to prepare each sex for their early maturation and annual reproductive schedule"



"The abdominal muscle group also includes the rectus abdominus and ischiocaudalis, both of which are anchored to the pelvic bones. The pelvic bones, which grow at a highly accelerated rate relative to those of females, function as the bony anchor for the tissues of the male reproductive tract, including the external genitalia. The male reproductive tract, pelvic bones, and caudal abdominal muscles probably form an integrated unit that functions in supporting copulatory behavior."

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

It's amazing what blind, design free, natural processes can achieve:

Silvery fish skin is designed to dazzle and camouflage against predation. To achieve this, fish secrete millions of tiny nitrogenous crystals in layers on their skin and scales.

To increase the reflectivity further the fish secrete multiple layers of
mirror crystals sandwiched between tissue cells. BUT, to be
affective the sandwich has to be an exact thickness-exactly one quarter of the wavelength of the incident light!

For the greenish waters of oceans, this for example, requires a separation of seven millionths of a centimeter.

All achieved by chance genetic mutation apparently!

 

[Kangal]

All achieved by chance genetic mutation apparently!

And natural selection!

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

For a long time Science told the plebs that various human appendages were vestigial, throwbacks to a barbarous age. Question: Does anyone here beleive the coccyx is vestigial?

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

And natural selection!

off course!

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

Whale Evolution - Part 4

Who knew whale nipples were so fascinating!

Let us consider the amazing transformations that "natural selection" would accidently have had to stumble on to make the feeding of baby whales possible:


Picture the conversion (if u can) of a land mammal into a marine mammal. Each stage, of course must make the animal "fitter" (That's how natural selection works apparently) for existence than it was before. A land mammal must firstly transform itself into a seal like creature.

This involves giving up the use of its hind legs and dragging them around behind it in a useless fashion for a very Long time until said legs fuse together into some sort of seal like composition. Anyone see survival issues at this vulnerable stage? No?

I shall continue...

Next, the pelvis needs to shrink and the portion of the body behind the pelvis must somehow twist round on the front part so that the sides come uppermost and undermost, and the lateral motion of the "seal" is converted to the vertical whale-like motion.

Moreover whales give birth to their young in the oceans and they suckle underwater. Before the first infant is ever conceived, in fact (millions of years b4 the said event) the mother needs to have evolved special muscles to jet the milk into the mouth of the young to prevent dispersion underwater. She also has to develop a cap round the nipples into which the snout of the young fit, water tightly.

The young also requires to have its windpipe prolonged above its gullet to prevent ejected milk going into the lungs. All these modifications have to happen, clearly, Long before the first young are ever born into the environment for which these modifications are required. They aren't going to happen over night. There can clearly be no intermediate stages for these biologically necessary setups in the marine environment as young would invariably drown, and so these changes would not be selected for.

The prescient power of natural selection is something to behold! Genius level randomness

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

'Natural Selection' are the magic wizard words that mean you don't have to account for the huge holes and stumbling blocks in the various stages of necessary transition (for which we have no fossils). Nor are you required to describe or even think about the absurd mechanics of transformation that would surely have had to occur, as in the whale.

'Natural Selection' is a get out of intellectual jail card for mitwits and ideologues

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

Jambo is raging that he can't scutter all over this thread right now, not for a whole week!

He'll be bullin when he gets back

 

[Declan]

Jambo is raging that he can't scutter all over this thread right now, not for a whole week!

He'll be bullin when he gets back

That is enough time for God to create a brand new universe for him.

 

[Tiger]

It's explained in great detail, backed up by particle physics.

We just do know yet what happened before the Big Bang.

As I said the key questions are around abiogenesis.

Tank, we all know your posting style (frenetic googling to find confirmation bias based information) and how little effort you go into trying to stand your ground on stuff you’ve posted. Can I ask that you refrain from that here and try to give some consideration to what you post and be prepared to back it up.

For example you jumped in underpants first with your Smithsonian article on the fossil record for human evolution thinking that you had a home run.

Then, when I started to challenge it, my guess is that you googled it again and realised you may not be on the solid ground you thought you were on and quickly changed tact and deflected with a ‘oh look how complicated it is’ article. An article glued together with speculation and not backed up by concrete evidence.

The article states that conditions under which HomoSapiens originated in Africa involved interconnected subgroups and this played a role in adaptability. This presented as fact but with no supporting evidence. It’s storytelling.

The article did acknowledge ‘gaps in our understanding’, especially behind the development of humans having large brains.

In the pursuit of a more accurate understanding of our past, it’s crucial to maintain a distinction between established facts, informed speculation and good old fashioned speculation.

The article also talked about interbreeding with other ‘hominid species’. There is no available evidence for this speculation. The article portrays it as established fact.

In addition to that you brought dog breeding and a magic telescope that can see into the distant past into the mix as evidence for your belief in evolution.

All in all, not a good day for you.

 

[Tiger]

Jambo is raging that he can't scutter all over this thread right now, not for a whole week!

He'll be bullin when he gets back

He’ll be let of the looney bin in a week. He’ll troll here straight away (does he do anything else?) and be immediately banned again.

 

[Kangal]

Then, when I started to challenge it,

The article you admitted to not reading?

Interesting.

 

[Tiger]

The article you admitted to not reading?

Interesting.

I’ve read it.

Now, are you prepared to back it up?

Would you concede that there’s lots of speculation in it?

 

[Kangal]

I’ve read it.

Sweet Jesus. Its a Christmas miracle.

Now read the next one.

 

[Tiger]

That is enough time for God to create a brand new universe for him.

He’s certainly in a world of his own.

He’s glued to this thread too. Haha!

 

[Tiger]

Sweet Jesus. Its a Christmas miracle.

Now read the next one.

Is it full of fiction too?

 

[Kangal]

Is it full of fiction too?

You still haven't read it!

FFS, try not to make a complete tit of yourself.

 

[Tiger]

You still haven't read it!

FFS, try not to make a complete tit of yourself.

Tank, it helps discussions to actually mention what you are talking about.

“The other one” doesn’t cut it.

I’ve gone back over your posts and there isn’t any other articles posted to me from you.

There’s the Smithsonian one that you ran from, the scientific American fiction piece and the dog breeding wiki page.

That’s it.

 

[Kangal]

Tank, it helps discussions to actually mention what you are talking about.

“The other one” doesn’t cut it.

I’ve gone back over your posts and there isn’t any other articles posted to me from you.

There’s the Smithsonian one that you ran from, the scientific American fiction piece and the dog breeding wiki page.

That’s it.

Hilarious. Thank you.

 

[Tiger]

Hilarious. Thank you.

Can you point to this article you are referring to?

 

[Tiger]

Rogans interview with Meyer is interesting.

Instead of countering Meyer’s bio molecular challenges to evolution, he spent the entire time just saying “yeah, but isn’t it possible that we could find an answer to that in the future”. This is a classic evolutionist tactic to avoid uncomfortable truths about their shallow knowledge of what is supposed to explain their existential worldview.

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

You still haven't read it!

FFS, try not to make a complete tit of yourself.

Could you tell us how natural selection knew , in advance, how to organize the suckling of baby mammals underwater, as per the needs of whale evolution?

 

[Kangal]

Can you point to this article you are referring to?

Why should I? You can check my posts and post a cogent argument against each. Not whiffly-waffly insults but actual well thought out counter arguments.

The Wikipedia article points to modern experiments you either never bother reading or pathetically tried to ignore. This totally collapses any credibility you have. But even dog breeding points to directed selection. Its the same with all other domesticed animals.

The evidence for evolution, both natural or directed, is overwhelming.

So much so that we should move on to real questions about abiogenesis.

 

[Tiger]

Why should I? You can check my posts and post a cogent argument against each. Not whiffly-waffly insults but actual well thought out counter arguments.

The Wikipedia article points to modern experiments you either never bother reading or pathetically tried to ignore. This totally collapses any credibility you have. But even dog breeding points to directed selection. Its the same with all other domesticed animals.

The evidence for evolution, both natural or directed, is overwhelming.

So much so that we should move on to real questions about abiogenesis.

So there wasn’t any other article.

You’re some eejit.

 

[Kangal]

Could you tell us how natural selection knew , in advance, how to organize the suckling of baby mammals underwater, as per the needs of whale evolution?

Natural selection doesn't know anything. An advantage is confered or not, depending on the environment. That's why everything is actually totally fucked up. Bodyforms are not neat and efficient, far from it. But it works well enough, considering environmental pressuresn to allow another generation of animals. That's all.

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

The evidence for evolution, both natural or directed, is overwhelming.

What evidence, give us your top 5 ?

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

Bodyforms are not neat and efficient, far from it.

Based on what metrics of observation and comparison exactly?
Who told you this?

OK, forget 'natural selection' (quickly abandoned I see). Describe how baby whales survived infanthood before the necessary plumbing was in place. How did it work out? What does the science say?

 

[Kangal]

So there wasn’t any other article.

You’re some eejit.

Sigh.

An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens

Scientists share the findings that helped them pinpoint key moments in the rise of our species

www.smithsonianmag.com

How Scientists Discovered the Staggering Complexity of Human Evolution

Darwin would be delighted by the story his successors have revealed

www.scientificamerican.com

Experimental evolution - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What's the next stupid thing you are going to say?

 

[Tiger]

Sigh.

An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens

Scientists share the findings that helped them pinpoint key moments in the rise of our species

www.smithsonianmag.com

How Scientists Discovered the Staggering Complexity of Human Evolution

Darwin would be delighted by the story his successors have revealed

www.scientificamerican.com

Experimental evolution - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What's the next stupid thing you are going to say?

Yup the three that I mentioned and responded to all of them.

Is your executive function not working today?

 

[Kangal]

Based on what metrics of observation and comparison exactly?
Who told you this?

What Evolution Got Wrong About Our Bodies

Humans have a tailbone for a tail we don’t have, wisdom teeth that don’t fit in our mouths, and tonsils that only seem to cause problems. Not everyone has…

www.wgbh.org

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

Yup the three that I mentioned and responded to all of them.

Is your executive function not working today?

Amazing they haven't discovered ChatGpt yet

 

[Kangal]

forget 'natural selection' (quickly abandoned I see).

When did I do that?

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

What Evolution Got Wrong About Our Bodies

Humans have a tailbone for a tail we don’t have, wisdom teeth that don’t fit in our mouths, and tonsils that only seem to cause problems. Not everyone has…

www.wgbh.org

Good lord, this sham of an article opens with the aul tail bone hoax. You lazy sod

Some examples of the biolgocal design and necessisity of our 'tail bone':

Women who have had their coccyx fixated due to previous fracture have more problems giving birth to their baby, and this suggests a function in delivery. Any midwife can tell you this

The nerves that exit the sacrum and coccyx go to the tissues and organs in that area. These include the muscles of the buttocks and hips as well as portions of the thigh and leg.

In addition, organs and tissues such as the rectum and portions of pelvic tissues are also innervated by these nerves. As a result, some of the problems that may occur as a result of subluxations here could be sacroiliac conditions, hemorrhoids, scoliosis, and pain when sitting

National Ankylosing Spondylitis Society. They state that, “the coccyx, or tailbone, is composed of from three to five rudimentary vertebrae....The articulation between the coccygeal vertebrae and the sacrum allow some flexibility in the coccyx, which is particularly beneficial in taking the stresses of sitting and falling. The coccyx is extremely susceptible to shock fracture....Furthermore, since a number of nerve pathways pass near this area, damage to the coccyx threatens damage to the nerves of the lower body...” (NASS, 4). In addition, NASS includes that the coccyx “helps protect the lower alimentary tract” (NASS, 1).


The above notion can be readily observed in a variety of ways. First off, when a person sits down pressure is exerted on the coccyx. As a response, the coccyx moves forward to absorb most of the shock that sitting down entails. This can be observed as an active reaction to stress the body is experiencing and is therefore a protective response by the “vestigial” coccyx. Another way to determine the importance of the coccyx is by looking at the different structures that are connected to it (since one of the main functions of the skeletal system is its connection with muscles and other formations). The coccyx is cranially connected to the sacrum. According to NASS, the articulation between these two, help function as a shock absorber. At its periphery, the coccyx holds (along with the pubis and ischial spine) a sheet of muscle called the pelvic diaphragm Hospital, 1). The pelvic diaphragm includes, the levator ani, perineal body, perineal membrane, and other small muscles (Miller, . Hence, as can be observed, the coccyx holds in place a variety of structures that are important in locomotion and the protection of different internal organs.

Tank, I will pay all the bills if you agree to have your vestigial tail bone surgically removed for us. What say you?

 

[Kangal]

Yup the three that I mentioned and responded to all of them.

You made no attempt to make a counter argument.

So it's over to you. Show us, with evidence, it's all wrong.

Every single point.

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

When did I do that?

I'll ask again. How did baby whales survive birth before the necessary protective plumbing and biological systems were in place , necessary for suckling underwater?

 

[Kangal]

Good lord, this sham of an article opens with the aul tail bone hoax. You lazy sod

Some examples of the biolgocal design and necessisity of our 'tail bone':

Women who have had their coccyx fixated due to previous fracture have more problems giving birth to their baby, and this suggests a function in delivery. Any midwife can tell you this

The nerves that exit the sacrum and coccyx go to the tissues and organs in that area. These include the muscles of the buttocks and hips as well as portions of the thigh and leg.

In addition, organs and tissues such as the rectum and portions of pelvic tissues are also innervated by these nerves. As a result, some of the problems that may occur as a result of subluxations here could be sacroiliac conditions, hemorrhoids, scoliosis, and pain when sitting

National Ankylosing Spondylitis Society. They state that, “the coccyx, or tailbone, is composed of from three to five rudimentary vertebrae....The articulation between the coccygeal vertebrae and the sacrum allow some flexibility in the coccyx, which is particularly beneficial in taking the stresses of sitting and falling. The coccyx is extremely susceptible to shock fracture....Furthermore, since a number of nerve pathways pass near this area, damage to the coccyx threatens damage to the nerves of the lower body...” (NASS, 4). In addition, NASS includes that the coccyx “helps protect the lower alimentary tract” (NASS, 1).


The above notion can be readily observed in a variety of ways. First off, when a person sits down pressure is exerted on the coccyx. As a response, the coccyx moves forward to absorb most of the shock that sitting down entails. This can be observed as an active reaction to stress the body is experiencing and is therefore a protective response by the “vestigial” coccyx. Another way to determine the importance of the coccyx is by looking at the different structures that are connected to it (since one of the main functions of the skeletal system is its connection with muscles and other formations). The coccyx is cranially connected to the sacrum. According to NASS, the articulation between these two, help function as a shock absorber. At its periphery, the coccyx holds (along with the pubis and ischial spine) a sheet of muscle called the pelvic diaphragm Hospital, 1). The pelvic diaphragm includes, the levator ani, perineal body, perineal membrane, and other small muscles (Miller, . Hence, as can be observed, the coccyx holds in place a variety of structures that are important in locomotion and the protection of different internal organs.

Tank, I will pay all the bills if you agree to have your vestigial tail bone surgically removed for us. What say you?

Can you send me the link you copied that from?

 

[Kangal]

I'll ask again

No no no.

When did I "abandon natural selection"?

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

Can you send me the link you copied that from?

These are from personal notes I put together years ago. Feel free to source the info all by yourself, just as I had to back in the day

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

No no no.

When did I "abandon natural selection"?

When you said bodies were all messed up and barely fit for purpose, obliquely attempting to deny the excellent design in mammalian systems, as we see in the suckling mechanisms of whales, as but one example. Do you deny that the underwater suckling mechanism for baby whales are quite brilliant?

Tank, you do realize, anyone reading these threads can see you are an opportunist, way out of your depth, no?