Origins Thread

Do you believe in evolution?


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AN2

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He was, No Joe Dolan ;) :D
True :)

But he was writing songs like Careless Whisper (not a personal favourite of mine) when he was like seventeen.

I watched the documentary - Wham! (RidoMovies is great for free stuff :)) last night and yeah, I think the Wham! stuff was pretty great. It's not that easy to write great pop songs
 

clarke-connolly

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True :)

But he was writing songs like Careless Whisper (not a personal favourite of mine) when he was like seventeen.

I watched the documentary - Wham! (RidoMovies is great for free stuff :)) last night and yeah, I think the Wham! stuff was pretty great. It's not that easy to write great pop songs
He was Grand really ~ ~ I have no great feelings one way or another about him ~ ~ A lot of people liked him ~ ~ Each to their own tastes in music !
 

clarke-connolly

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My fear is that when we Die we wake up in a worse place and this place we are in right now was heaven all along
You are probably in a simulation ~ ~ Maybe because your real life has, little or no jeopardy / mistakes / excitement !

We may just be in computer solving problems ~ Under the conditions / simulation that we live in !

I recommend not taking any of it too seriously ~ ~ Some Kid in the real world might plug out the computer at any minute ! :D
 

AN2

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ONE of the greatest pop stars of all time, Georgios Kyriacos Panayiotou AKA George Michael -


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zX23cKZKeQ0

I will bring the George Michael musical tribute to an end with one final video.

I have to say, I remember the above song blowing me away when it came out, I think it's a great pop song (and remember all the supermodels in the video :))

Of course, it's full title is Freedom! '90, why, because George had another song called Freedom from his Wham! days..

He died alone on Christmas day in 2016, not much older than I am now

He was a somewhat tragic figure to me, I think he just wanted to be famous (and as the Stone Roses once said, adored) . RIP George Michael


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=geEGDV-bHO4
 
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clarke-connolly

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I will bring the George Michael musical tribute to an end with one final video.

I have to say, I remember the above song blowing me away when it came out, I think it's a great pop song (and remember all the supermodels in the video :))

Of course, it's full title is Freedom! '90, why, because George had another song called Freedom from his Wham! days..

He died alone on Christmas day in 2016, not much older than I am now

He was a somewhat tragic figure to me, I think he just wanted to be famous (and as the Stone Roses once said, adored) . RIP George Michael


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=geEGDV-bHO4

Seems like ~ ~ He forgot the Maracas in that Video ! !
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Evolution via genetic mutation is mathematically impossible:

The complete scientific falsification of the neo-Darwinian synthesis has already been accomplished, it simply hasn’t been widely recognized because biologists are too mathematically challenged and insufficiently skilled at pattern recognition to put the various pieces together yet. Consider the following pieces:

  • The fastest observed genetic fixation in a species required 1,600 generations.
  • This 1,600-generations-per-fixation rate included parallel fixations.
  • The fastest observed spread of a genetic line in humans occurred at a rate that would require at least 8,170 generations per fixation.
  • Chinese scientists have asserted that genes in complex species such as humans change at a rate that is approximately one-fiftieth the rate of genetic change in simple species like bacteria. This implies at least 80,000 generations per genetic fixation.
  • The genetic difference between a modern Homo sapiens sapiens and a modern Pan troglodytes required around 30 million genetic fixations between the two species.
  • The estimated 9 million years since the Chimpanzee-Human Last Common Ancestor permits for somewhere between 282 and 55 genetic fixations per species. This is less than 0.000000006 percent of the observed genetic difference between modern chimpanzees and modern humans. It is also less than one percent of the observed genetic differences between two genetically divergent modern humans.

 

PlunkettsGhost

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Again, for the hard of thinking:

Chinese researchers are methodically dismantling the conventional model of human evolution, specifically, the so-called “Out of Africa” theory:

In other words, the scientists are finally looking at genetic fixation, and observing that “there is less room for mutations” in more complicated organisms for genetic change. In other words, even more generations are required for the same sort of genetic change that has been observed in simpler organisms; based on the example given, the fastest genetic fixation observed in laboratory bacteria, which is 1600 generations per fixation, would require 80,000 generations in humans.

 
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AN2

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Evolution via genetic mutation is mathematically impossible:



Again, for the hard of thinking:





I must've missed when Vox Day became an evolutionary biologist
 

PlunkettsGhost

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I must've missed when Vox Day became an evolutionary biologist
You've also missed the entire mathematical argument! lol
Are we surprised!? No :LOL:

Nice use of the appeal to authority fallacy also. A classic. Most folk have moved on from that inane argument.
 
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AN2

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we can ignore Darwin so, the failed theology student with no biology credentials. Grand so. Case closed
It's just a few bullet points written by a (fundamentalist) Christian who doesn't believe in evolution (I think you missed that part)
 

PlunkettsGhost

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It's just a few bullet points
brainlet.jpg
 

PlunkettsGhost

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The case is CLOSED James. By your own logic, we no longer have to listen to anything about the failed theology student and his pet ideas. You can put a bow on this thread now, ask for it to be locked. It is done.
 

clarke-connolly

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Tiger

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I got a lot of respect for Dawkins when he did eventually come out and call this Gender Bull-Shit as Bull-Shit !

He was a bit slow in doing so but got there in the end ~ ~ Takes a bit of courage because some of these Trans-Nutters and their crazy backers are crazy enough to try to kill you !

It’s certainly one of the smarter utterances from him.

It also highlights the current state of this ‘prominent’ atheists association in the US.
 

jpc

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It’s certainly one of the smarter utterances from him.

It also highlights the current state of this ‘prominent’ atheists association in the US.
Shouldn't it be rename "Wokists association:?
Looks like the association are trying to broaden their relevance/appeal/ market share in a competitive market for pseudo religious beliefs.
 

Tiger

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Shouldn't it be rename "Wokists association:?
Looks like the association are trying to broaden their relevance/appeal/ market share in a competitive market for pseudo religious beliefs.
I don’t know anything about them, but I imagine so.

The cancer of gender ideology has permeated almost every organisation.
 

Tiger

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@PlunkettsGhost @it_is_what_it_is Are any of you familiar with HGT?

One of the many challenges to Darwinian evolution is something called 'Horizontal Gene Transfer'.

Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT) exposes a serious flaw in the Darwinian framework. Unlike the simplistic 'tree of life' narrative, where species are said to evolve gradually through incremental genetic changes inherited from ancestors, HGT shows that organisms can acquire entirely new traits almost overnight by directly sharing genetic material across species. This isn't evolution by slow, random mutations and natural selection—it’s more like genetic engineering on a cosmic scale. HGT undermines the tidy, linear story Darwinists have been peddling, revealing a far messier and more complex reality that their dogma struggles to account for.

A notable paper addressing these challenges is "Horizontal Gene Transfer in Evolution: Facts and Challenges" by Luis Boto, published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences in 2010.


In this paper, Boto discusses how HGT complicates the classical tree-like representation of evolutionary relationships by introducing genetic material across different species and even domains. This horizontal exchange can lead to rapid acquisition of new traits, contrasting with the gradualism central to Darwinian theory. Boto argues that the prevalence of HGT necessitates a reevaluation of the neo-Darwinian paradigm, suggesting the integration of HGT into a more comprehensive evolutionary framework.

When we see genetic material moving with purpose and precision across species boundaries, bypassing the supposed randomness of Darwinian processes, it begs the question: is this the result of an external intelligence? Such an idea explains the intricate, designed appearance of HGT better than the current evolutionary framework, which struggles to reconcile this phenomenon within its naturalistic assumptions
 
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AN2

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Fail is Fail

I read today one of the funniest things I've read in the ID thread, written by @Tiger, he said -

"One of the smarter utterances from him."

Referring to Dawkins when he said that sex is binary.

If Tiger considers that to be one of the smarter utterances Dawkins has made.. how much do you think he understands about anything he (Dawkins) has ever said 😆
 

clarke-connolly

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Fail is Fail

I read today one of the funniest things I've read in the ID thread, written by @Tiger, he said -

"One of the smarter utterances from him."

Referring to Dawkins when he said that sex is binary.

If Tiger considers that to be one of the smarter utterances Dawkins has made.. how much do you think he understands about anything he (Dawkins) has ever said 😆
Is Dawkins all that smart really ? !

Didn't Darwin already do the heavy lifting in Dawkins speciality ? !
 

Tiger

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@clarke-connolly - in response to this post on the spam thread.

“ Is Dawkins all that smart really ? !

Didn't Darwin already do the heavy lifting in Dawkins speciality ? !”

It’s true to say that Richard Dawkins has hitched his entire reputation to Darwinism, but in doing so, he has tied himself to a sinking ship. His unwillingness to address decades of scientific challenges to the theory—challenges he conveniently ignores—has done more to undermine his credibility than to bolster the Darwinian framework he so fervently defends.

Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, once heralded as the final word on the origins and development of life, has been undermined by the very science that once championed it. Darwin painted a picture of slow, gradual changes giving rise to all the diversity we see today, a "tree of life" branching endlessly upward and outward. Yet, time and again, reality refuses to conform to his Victorian fantasies.

Take, for instance, his claim that the fossil record would reveal a multitude of transitional forms—proof of his gradualist vision. What we find instead is the abrupt appearance of fully formed species, most famously during the Cambrian Explosion, with little evidence of the painstaking evolutionary steps Darwin imagined. This phenomenon isn’t a minor oversight; it’s a direct challenge to the supposed slow march of evolution. Darwin’s defenders, unable to produce the transitions he predicted, resort to vague excuses about “gaps” in the fossil record.

Then there’s Darwin’s misunderstanding of inheritance. He believed in a “blending” model, where offspring would inherit a mixture of traits from their parents. This was dead wrong. Mendel’s work, ignored during Darwin’s lifetime, revealed that traits are passed down through discrete units—genes. Had Darwin understood this, he might have realized that blending would dilute advantageous traits out of existence rather than enhance them.

Darwin’s so-called "tree of life," where species evolve in neat, branching patterns, has also been shattered by modern discoveries. Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT), where genetic material is shared across species—even across entirely different domains of life—reduces the tree to a tangled web. Bacteria, for example, can acquire resistance genes from their neighbors, completely bypassing the gradual accumulation of mutations Darwin envisioned. If life operates more like a genetic free-for-all than a slow, upward climb, what does that say about Darwin’s model?

And what about the lack of transitional fossils? Darwin suggested that evolution proceeds through slow, continuous change, yet the fossil record stubbornly refuses to cooperate. To explain away this glaring problem, evolutionary theorists devised the concept of "punctuated equilibrium." This idea proposes that species remain stable for long periods and then change rapidly, supposedly too quickly to leave behind transitional forms. But this smacks more of an excuse than a scientific explanation, conveniently sweeping the fossil gaps under the rug instead of addressing the core issue: Darwin’s gradualism simply doesn’t hold up.

Complex traits like the eye or the bacterial flagellum pose another insurmountable problem. Darwin argued that such features must arise through countless, incremental steps, each offering a survival advantage. But modern science has revealed that certain systems are irreducibly complex—they require multiple interdependent parts to function. Remove just one, and the whole system fails. How could such intricate mechanisms evolve gradually if they are useless until fully formed?

Even altruism in nature challenges Darwin’s theory. If survival is a ruthless competition, as he claimed, why do we see organisms sacrificing themselves for others? The simplistic idea that natural selection only favors selfishness falls apart when faced with the complexity of cooperative behaviors in nature. These traits point to something deeper than Darwin’s blind struggle for existence.

Darwin’s theory, upheld as dogma for over a century, is crumbling under the weight of its own contradictions. Far from providing the “final answer” to the origins of life, it looks increasingly like a relic of outdated 19th-century thinking. The modern discoveries that refute his gradualist model demand not just tweaks to his theory but a wholesale reconsideration of the forces at work in the natural world.
 
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AN2

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Is Dawkins all that smart really ? !

Didn't Darwin already do the heavy lifting in Dawkins speciality ? !
I think he could lay claim to having a few ideas of his own

I would certainly think that he is an intelligent man and I would think that I'd be quite familiar with how he thinks (and how he's misunderstood by people less intelligent than him)

I've said before that I don't necessarily agree with his atheistic arguments. I couldn't place myself on his 1-7 probabilistic scale (I'm more of a 50-50 guy :)) and his appeal to rationality doesn't make that much sense to me. So when he implores Medhi Hasan that he's - a man of the 21st century..



..that wouldn't be an approach that I would take. Obviously there isn't any eh, fossil record of winged horses and indeed it may be a biological ludicrousy that they would exist but there's not much point in using science as an argument regarding that stuff. I would say the same about Christianity regarding say the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection. Religious belief isn't scientific
 

clarke-connolly

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If Dawkins thinks Medhi Hasan is a Sophisticated Respected Journalist ~ Then I respectively suggest that Richard Dawkins failed ~ The Intelligence Test right there !
 

Tiger

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If Dawkins thinks Medhi Hasan is a Sophisticated Respected Journalist ~ Then I respectively suggest that Richard Dawkins failed ~ The Intelligence Test right there !

@clarke-connolly

In response to this quote above…

We must also remember his trips on Epstein’s private jet too. Not a great show of discernment.

The reality is that Dawkins has become an irrelevance in the real scientific debate on evolution, clinging to outdated ideas while modern biology moves beyond him. Instead, he’s a grifter, debating school kids and easy targets on YouTube, offering a spectacle for the masses but no genuine intellectual contribution.

Richard Dawkins, clinging to Darwinism like a lifeline, has reduced the grandeur of creation to nothing more than a selfish gene dance. In The Selfish Gene, he champions a view of evolution as a cutthroat contest between genes, ignoring the deeper complexities of life—like epigenetics and horizontal gene transfer—that render his reductionist narrative laughable.

He dismisses the concept of Intelligent Design as nothing more than pseudoscience, but this is pure intellectual cowardice, offering no real engagement with its legitimate critique of the theory of evolution (much like his loyal, illiterate followers). His overconfidence in Darwinism, despite the growing evidence against it, leaves him blind to the scientific challenges that modern biology presents.
 

AN2

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If Dawkins thinks Medhi Hasan is a Sophisticated Respected Journalist ~ Then I respectively suggest that Richard Dawkins failed ~ The Intelligence Test right there !
I'm not sure that he always tells the truth about what he really thinks of a journalist.

Here he is denying that he thinks Piers Morgan is a fool (one of Drooper's favourite philosophers 😆) and I doubt anything changed after the interview -


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pA4Hx-dJAn4&t=58
 

Tiger

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@Myles O'Reilly, this video should be right up your street. It’s an hour and twenty two minutes long and choc of complex scientific jargon. 👍



View: https://youtu.be/DT0TP_Ng4gA?feature=shared


Denis Noble is a distinguished British physiologist and systems biologist, renowned for his pioneering contributions to cardiac physiology and evolutionary biology. In 1960, he developed the first mathematical model of the heart's electrical activity, which became a cornerstone of computational biology. A Fellow of the Royal Society and a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, Noble has served as President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences and received multiple honorary doctorates. As a leading advocate for systems biology, he challenges reductionist views, including the central dogma of molecular biology, emphasizing the importance of feedback mechanisms and epigenetics. His influential book The Music of Life and his critiques of gene-centric evolution have reshaped debates on biological complexity and evolution.

In this video he challenges the traditional gene-centric view of evolution, notably popularized by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene." Noble argues that this perspective is overly reductionist and doesn't account for the complex interactions within biological systems. He emphasizes the importance of systems biology, which considers the intricate networks of genes, proteins, cells, and their environments, suggesting that understanding these interactions is crucial for a comprehensive grasp of evolutionary processes.
Noble also critiques the central dogma of molecular biology—the idea that genetic information flows in a linear manner from DNA to RNA to proteins. He presents evidence of feedback mechanisms and epigenetic factors that can influence gene expression and inheritance, indicating a more dynamic and bidirectional flow of information. This perspective challenges the traditional view that genetic information is solely passed down through DNA sequences, highlighting the role of epigenetic modifications and environmental interactions in evolution.

Furthermore, Noble discusses the Weismann barrier, which posits a strict separation between germ cells (responsible for reproduction) and somatic cells (constituting the body), suggesting that changes in somatic cells don't affect the germ line. He argues that this barrier is not absolute, pointing to evidence that environmental factors and epigenetic changes in somatic cells can influence the germ line, thereby affecting evolutionary outcomes.
In summary, Noble advocates for a more integrative approach to biology, one that moves beyond the gene-centric view to incorporate the complexities of biological systems, epigenetic factors, and environmental interactions. This broader perspective aims to provide a more comprehensive understanding of the mechanisms driving biological developments.
 

scolairebocht

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That's quit interesting Tiger, you know for what its worth I wrote a little about this in my latest book. I was making the point about the vaccines, that instead of it being 'only genetic modification of RNA not DNA, and hence not making you genetically modified' I pointed out that in fact it isn't as clean a separation as some suggest. RNA and DNA are very closely linked and there is in fact pathyways for RNA to come back and influence DNA, which makes the mRNA vaccines even more of a disaster.
 

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