Origins Thread

Do you believe in evolution?


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Tiger

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Are we not the same as most of the other Earthling's. Even the birds and fish - We're similar!!😊


I think you are missing the point.

The point is that DNA is a fundamental component of almost all living organisms, acting as the repository of genetic information necessary for life processes. There’s no way for it to gradually come into being in a step-by-step Darwinian way.

While DNA and computer code both serve as mediums for encoding complex instructions and information, they operate in fundamentally different realms—biological versus digital. The analogy is useful for understanding the complexity and organization of genetic information, but the processes and contexts in which they function are distinct.

DNA and computer code share several similarities, making the analogy between them quite insightful.
 

Tiger

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Bears hibernate. Herpes viruses lysogenize. Worms form a dauer stage. Insects enter diapause. Amphibians aestivate. Birds go into torpor. All of these are words for the exact same thing: a dormant state that organisms can reverse when conditions are favorable.

 

Tiger

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How the Myth of Junk DNA Hindered Science - Andrew McDiarmid


For decades, we’ve been told that only a tiny percentage of DNA is functional and that the vast majority is useless junk.
 

Tiger

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Chromatin, the tightly packaged form of DNA within the nucleus, plays a central role in regulating gene expression and maintaining genomic integrity.

This complex structure relies on a fascinating interplay between ordered and disordered protein regions.

Phylogenetics has identified IDP with no change in function over a billion years. No evolution over a billion years! This is due to the fact IDP can sustain mutations with no change to their function. This is in direct opposition to gradual evolution by accumulating mutations with neo-Darwinism.

 

Tiger

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Cross-Species Comparative DNA Methylation Reveals Novel Insights into Complex Trait Genetics among Cattle, Sheep, and Goats"

The MS view of complex traits focuses on the additive effects of numerous genes, often with small individual influences. This view struggles to explain how seemingly minor methylation changes, not directly altering the DNA sequence itself, can have significant impacts on traits like milk production or wool quality.

The MS view doesn't fully account for the dynamic interplay between genes, environment, and epigenetic modifications like DNA methylation.

 

Professor

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Yeah but, How about these, I just initially stumbled upon in the quick search to compare the various similarities in Humans such as neanderthal, cro magnon & various Homo's

Just in this quick snap we see huge similarities between us all (Mammalian Ape Types)

ape_skeletons_540w-3701553113.jpg

🍌🍌🍌 :D
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Yeah but, How about these, I just initially stumbled upon in the quick search to compare the various similarities in Humans such as neanderthal, cro magnon & various Homo's

Just in this quick snap we see huge similarities between us all (Mammalian Ape Types)

View attachment 5838
🍌🍌🍌 :D
Cats and dogs have similar skeletal morphology. What's your point?
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Yeah but, How about these, I just initially stumbled upon in the quick search to compare the various similarities in Humans such as neanderthal, cro magnon & various Homo's

Just in this quick snap we see huge similarities between us all (Mammalian Ape Types)

View attachment 5838
🍌🍌🍌 :D
why do they all look like they are about to fall over?
 

Professor

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Cats and dogs have similar skeletal morphology. What's your point?
Simply because there is evidence (from the drawing) to suggest that we all come from very similar origins.

why do they all look like they are about to fall over?
Because it's drawn in a style artists employ to describe posture and movement?

;)
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Simply because there is evidence (from the drawing) to suggest that we all come from very similar origins.


Because it's drawn in a style artists employ to describe posture and movement?

;)
There is no fossil evidence indicating a horse and a man have the same predecessor . Yet we both have ribs, a skull, vertebrate spine, and 4 limbs.
 

Professor

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There is no fossil evidence indicating a horse and a man have the same predecessor . Yet we both have ribs, a skull, vertebrate spine, and 4 limbs.
Yeah but, we've got to be realistic and think outside of the box at the possibilities.
There may not be much fossil evidence so far because of the massive changes that have occurred since the evolutionary split.

Look I've researched none of this but I'm suggesting that circumstances and conditions caused our grand daddy to undergo changes and fork off toward where we are today - This pre- sapien may have been very small in number to start with in a unique environment.
Topography, bizarre environments, special foods and lifestyles led to physical changes.
There may have been interstellar radio activity from a meteor strike which led to their alterations or many other incredible factors(including God) - The thing is, it only had to happen in a small region to make the change, to us.
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Yeah but, we've got to be realistic and think outside of the box at the possibilities.
There may not be much fossil evidence so far because of the massive changes that have occurred since the evolutionary split.

Look I've researched none of this but I'm suggesting that circumstances and conditions caused our grand daddy to undergo changes and fork off toward where we are today - This pre- sapien may have been very small in number to start with in a unique environment.
Topography, bizarre environments, special foods and lifestyles led to physical changes.
There may have been interstellar radio activity from a meteor strike which led to their alterations or many other incredible factors(including God) - The thing is, it only had to happen in a small region to make the change, to us.
It's all just magical thinking without hard evidence and data. And how far back did the Horse/Man split occur? This is fundamental to establish. It can't have been too far back, say, two fish that diverged. Then you have to convince people that the two evolving fish just happened onto the same mechanical design motif later on, accidentally, without any exterior input. What does the statistical math on that look like? Not good I'm guessing .
 
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Tiger

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Yeah but, How about these, I just initially stumbled upon in the quick search to compare the various similarities in Humans such as neanderthal, cro magnon & various Homo's

Just in this quick snap we see huge similarities between us all (Mammalian Ape Types)

View attachment 5838
🍌🍌🍌 :D

Professor, using homogeneous structures as some sort of proof of Darwinian evolution takes the debate back to where it was 100 years ago.

No serious scientists uses it anymore. That debate ended with the invention of powerful microscopes. These powerful microscopes show what life is made of at a cellular level.

The concept of homogenous bone structures as an argument in evolutionary science refers to the idea that bones in different species might appear very similar at a superficial level, suggesting a common design or origin. This idea was more prominent before the advent of advanced scientific tools, like the microscope.

Once the microscope was invented and began to be used extensively in scientific research, it allowed for a much more detailed examination of bone structures at a cellular level. This new perspective revealed significant differences in the microstructures of bones among different species, which were not apparent from merely looking at the gross anatomy.

For instance, under the microscope, scientists could observe the arrangement and types of bone cells (osteocytes), the patterns of bone matrix deposition, and the vascular channels (Haversian systems). These microscopic features varied significantly among species, even if their overall bone shapes appeared similar.

Moreover, the detailed study of bone histology (the microscopic study of bone tissue) showed how bones grow and remodel differently in various species, reflecting their distinct designs. These findings were incompatible with the notion of homogenous bone structures.

Thus, the use of the microscope in studying bones provided concrete, detailed evidence that refuted the idea of homogenous bone structures across species, making it clear that bones, while sometimes superficially similar, are actually quite diverse at the microscopic level.
 
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Tiger

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How observable (not imaginary) "Evolutionary changes" should be interpreted.

Whenever you read in the news that "something evolved" - these are either epigenetic changes or adaptive mutations through the loss of function. I'll try to explain both briefly and try to understand this because you will have to apply this framework to all future and past news. Don't be deceived.

1) Epigenetics.
DNA in the genome can be tagged in specific places with special molecules that change gene function but keep the DNA sequence intact—a field of study called epigenetics. Epigenetic changes are dynamic and controlled by complicated cellular systems. They enable incredible levels of fine-tuned, environment-specific adjustments within organisms without any DNA sequence modifications whatsoever. Offspring can even inherit many of these epigenetic changes.
Epigenetic mechanisms are helpful at some future, unknown, time when the environmental challenge finally presents itself. They are useless when they initially arise, and so would not be preserved by evolution's mythical natural selection.
These are two mice with IDENTICAL DNA, however different expression of this DNA (different epigenetic tags)

We already have emperical examples of huge phenotypic changes which were attained very rapidly and were adaptive. And I'll pose some of the examples below which I found remarkable.

We already have emperical examples of huge phenotypic changes which were attained very rapidly and were adaptive. And I'll pose some of the examples below which I found remarkable.

1) Italian lizard acquired new organ in few decades- a gut valve after changing its environment . Without gene sequence alteration https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

2) stickleback fish rapidly acquired huge morphological changes without gene sequence alteration after changing its environment and waters

3) Unable to move and facing starvation, the bacteria evolve a replacement flagellum - a rotating tail-like structure which acts like an outboard motor - by patching together a new genetic switch with borrowed parts."But the hotwiring comes at a cost. The replacement key is a molecule borrowed from a system which regulates nitrogen levels. The mutant bacteria can now move, but it can't regulate nitrogen properly, which can build up and become toxic. Of course, it's an evolutionary price worth paying when the alternative is certain death."

4) "Consistent components of complex traits, such as those linked to human stature/height, fertility, and food metabolism or to hereditary defects, have been shown to respond to environmental or nutritional condition and to be epigenetically inherited

5) Studies of fish, birds, amphibians and insects suggest that adaptations that were, initially, environmentally induced may promote colonization of new environments and facilitate speciation5, 6. Some of the best-studied examples of this are in fishes, such as sticklebacks and Arctic char. Differences in the diets and conditions of fish living at the bottom and in open water have induced distinct body forms, which seem to be evolving reproductive isolation, a stage in forming new species.

6) And my favourite example is a cichlid fish wich diversified rapidly without gene sequence alteration

7) The beaks of Darwin's finches change through epigenetic process, not because natural selection kills particular finches with certain beaks during drought or normal climate conditions, but because of distinct dietes


8) The second example is an "Evolution through loss of function mutations". It's very common in nature. As an example I'll bring a car which runs out the fuel. In order this car to go further one can jettison the door of the car, its audio system, mirrors. Car will become lighter and can go more distance. However this is definitely a reduction in car's complexity.
I'll give you one more example. Imagine two enemies fighting each other. When one enemy attacks the other in order to survive the one who is attacked demolishes his bridge the enemy couldn't cross the border and kill him. Of course breaking the bridge he will survive, but this will not explain how the bridge appeared in the first place.

This is how it works. Such type of changes even being adaptive, never explain the origin of specified complexity and complex features.
 

Professor

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Ok, fair enough as you honourable fellows suggest. So what's so different about sapiens? Say 10,000 years ago?
 

Professor

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Right so, I've had illuminations and new ideas over dinner in regard to modern mans origins, worth sharing and testing.
So we arrive at a period long ago where early primitive man can be found, which according to wiki sources is 1.5 million years ago approx.

Any way dates and things aren't of such importance now, what is important is that we see various different humanoid creatures coming and going since way back then.

Now we must imagine a time when there were no modern sapiens around but that was about to change by virtue of Selective Breeding on a unique scale for what ever reason, so for example lets take an easy scenario which can explain what could have happened

To start with let's say that environment played a part and due to diet, location and habitat we find a group of early humans found an ideal location with ample food, wide variety of plants, fresh water and complex topography - or maybe it was an island where the tribe located but where ever it was the main thing is that they were safe from predators and diseases and consequently they lived long lives - like the hunza.

So we have this early tribe living in paradise with many village elders and because they are safe and well supplied then they have plenty of time to exploit their environment and learn . . .

They learn about breeding, they observe characteristics and they start to selectively breed themselves.

They discover yoga and start to stretch themselves out, they discover herbs which gives the brain a boost, they wear tight rings around their heads which changes the skull shape, while helping to expand their consciousness.
They become clever with the plants and animals in their region, they learn how to achieve better results by capitalising as a biped, after all they need to carry variety of tools while 'on the hoof'
Lips shape changes, muscle mass changes, foot size changes, neck length changes according to chosen design.

They become aware of their superiority and protect their group from the lesser humans but being in paradise they rarely see any other groups and so are free to concentrate on their own ideas which are so much more complex than the other early humans of the time.
circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, Breeding = Evolution you can measure - differences apparent! 🧐
 

Professor

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Just to say there's a certain feeling of satisfaction which comes from seemingly imagining a theory over dinner, writing it down and the checking up on it later . . . Food is key, it's always been no.1 for lifeforms

The thing is that those early humans who has time to think and reflect in a complex environment over a long life period would have been learning from all around them.
once longevity had been achieved for the group then language wasn't far behind or perhaps the language developed alongside stable longevity.
Once there was language then ideas could be expanded and developed by the group??
 

Tiger

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Right so, I've had illuminations and new ideas over dinner in regard to modern mans origins, worth sharing and testing.
So we arrive at a period long ago where early primitive man can be found, which according to wiki sources is 1.5 million years ago approx.

Any way dates and things aren't of such importance now, what is important is that we see various different humanoid creatures coming and going since way back then.

Now we must imagine a time when there were no modern sapiens around but that was about to change by virtue of Selective Breeding on a unique scale for what ever reason, so for example lets take an easy scenario which can explain what could have happened

To start with let's say that environment played a part and due to diet, location and habitat we find a group of early humans found an ideal location with ample food, wide variety of plants, fresh water and complex topography - or maybe it was an island where the tribe located but where ever it was the main thing is that they were safe from predators and diseases and consequently they lived long lives - like the hunza.

So we have this early tribe living in paradise with many village elders and because they are safe and well supplied then they have plenty of time to exploit their environment and learn . . .

They learn about breeding, they observe characteristics and they start to selectively breed themselves.

They discover yoga and start to stretch themselves out, they discover herbs which gives the brain a boost, they wear tight rings around their heads which changes the skull shape, while helping to expand their consciousness.
They become clever with the plants and animals in their region, they learn how to achieve better results by capitalising as a biped, after all they need to carry variety of tools while 'on the hoof'
Lips shape changes, muscle mass changes, foot size changes, neck length changes according to chosen design.

They become aware of their superiority and protect their group from the lesser humans but being in paradise they rarely see any other groups and so are free to concentrate on their own ideas which are so much more complex than the other early humans of the time.
circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, Breeding = Evolution you can measure - differences apparent! 🧐

People can ‘imagine’ a lot of things professor, however backing them up with hard evidence is another matter. The vast majority of things that we were taught about evolution at school had no proper evidence. Something that hardly any adult today realises.

Let’s unpack your reply and see what is speculation and what is backed up by evidence.

Your post contains exclusively; speculation, unsupported claims, or hypothetical scenarios without hard evidence. Here's a breakdown of the speculative parts removed:

“Illuminations and new ideas over dinner”: Speculative.

“Dates and things aren't of such importance”: Subjective and speculative.

“Imagine a time when there were no modern sapiens around but that was about to change by virtue of Selective Breeding on a unique scale”: Speculative.

“Environment playing a part and a group of early humans finding an ideal location with ample food, etc.” Speculative.

“Village elders and safety from predators and diseases”: Speculative.

“Learning about breeding, observing characteristics, and selectively breeding themselves” Speculative.

“Discovering yoga, herbs that boost the brain, and wearing tight rings around heads”: Speculative.

“Changes in physical characteristics due to selective breeding”: Speculative.

“Being aware of their superiority and protecting their group from lesser humans”: Speculative.

“Rarely seeing other groups and concentrating on their own ideas”: Speculative.

Statements combining circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, and Breeding as measurable evolution: Speculative without specific evidence.

Which leaves us with…
 

Tiger

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The live stream features Professor James Shapiro, a microbiologist at the University of Chicago, discussing his book "Evolution: A View from the 21st Century." Shapiro's work is a cornerstone of the Third Way of evolution, which challenges traditional views by emphasizing the dynamic and interactive processes within genomes. He shares insights from his friendship with Barbara McClintock, whose discoveries about mobile genetic elements and genomic plasticity have influenced his thinking. Shapiro explains natural genetic engineering, a concept where cells themselves cut and splice DNA, a process analogous to laboratory genetic engineering but occurring naturally within cells. This process involves various mechanisms such as viral integration, DNA replication, and repair, and is integral to understanding how genomes change and adapt.

Shapiro's revolutionary ideas argue against the randomness traditionally ascribed to genetic recombination and highlight the ability of cells to orchestrate significant genomic changes in response to environmental stimuli. He describes hybrid speciation, where mating between different species can trigger rapid genomic restructuring, leading to new species formation. Shapiro also critiques the reductionist view of genes, advocating for a systems perspective that sees genomes as databases utilized by cells. This shift in thinking affects various fields, including social sciences and health, urging a move away from simplistic genetic determinism towards an appreciation of complex, interactive networks that drive biological processes.


View: https://www.youtube.com/live/XzvYsLBNbjA
 

Professor

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Statements combining circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, and Breeding as measurable evolution: Speculative without specific evidence.

Which leaves us with…
First to mention that you are doing a marvelous job with this thread and kudos to you for taking us into the seriously scientific areas of modern DNA analysis etc etc. Brilliant and Well Done.

My lighthearted post based on perhaps a vague recollection of msm articles and wiki pages, was an exercise in applying random characteristics from recent modern human societies and groups.

Generally the speculations you correctly observe above are based on actually what modern humans do - They live very selective lives from birth to grave and stick together - Birds of a feather flock together.

Look at the distinct differences in modern humans, Scandinavians, Spanish, Russians, Chinese, African, Asians and Jews for example and look carefully at how in some of those groups there are very different but not random unique characteristics attributed to the various tribes, it's easy to demonstrate say with Africans and how veeerrry different they are to each other.

There!!! They are all Modern Human(Homo Sapien) but all evolved quite differently due to . . . . Selective Breeding.
That is the initial preliminary Generalised Evidence I draw upon at the dinner Table☺️

I'm not try to belittle or conflict with your Ideas on thread by any means - Am just trying a different approach to see where we land!?

Here, I found an Article with a similar perspective of sorts and will give it some time now to research it's ideas to see what's in it.
In fact it may well cover stuff you've already considered.
The Spanish refuge mentioned seems to be where I was getting at . . . .
 

Professor

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"Another missing factor?" - Yes, it's Trees & Shrub's 😋 in the Diet. Perhaps it's something to do with baby caterpillars who are born on trees. They feed on the tender green foliage and go on to feed further on Tree sap - Some how the specific nutrients, hormones and amino acids from the tree become part of the caterpillar which would be of little surprise to us (when we think about it :unsure: . . . 💡)
 

PlunkettsGhost

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"Another missing factor?" - Yes, it's Trees & Shrub's 😋 in the Diet. Perhaps it's something to do with baby caterpillars who are born on trees. They feed on the tender green foliage and go on to feed further on Tree sap - Some how the specific nutrients, hormones and amino acids from the tree become part of the caterpillar which would be of little surprise to us (when we think about it :unsure: . . . 💡)
The old phrase - 'you are what you eat' has been soundly debunked. It is quite the opposite. The body is designed to take in any and all form of nutrition and then turn it into itself.

Of course, a simple genetic test would be able to determine if there was genetic crossover from plant to animal.
 

Professor

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The old phrase - 'you are what you eat' has been soundly debunked. It is quite the opposite. The body is designed to take in any and all form of nutrition and then turn it into itself.

Of course, a simple genetic test would be able to determine if there was genetic crossover from plant to animal.

There could be a problem with such a sweeping generalisation as you present above in relation to all life on earth, really.
Of course what you say is true on the face of it in regard to DNA studies, I accept that, OK, but . . .

(I've not done the proper research yet) In the case of Butterflies, we must remember that 1. - they are seen to have existed for over 40-50 million years and 2, - They are often born into the plant, they go through all stages of development on/in the specific plant and as adults they (some of them) continue to feed on the plants juices.
The plants is sort of their Lifesource/Mother-nurse and the specific plants are all it's made of and that process goes on for 3000-10,000+ plus how long extra??? years in the lives of a continuous lifeline of a specific same species.
I think we can show that diet and environment do play a significant role in influencing an organism's characteristics (some of them)?
 

Tiger

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There could be a problem with such a sweeping generalisation as you present above in relation to all life on earth, really.
Of course what you say is true on the face of it in regard to DNA studies, I accept that, OK, but . . .

(I've not done the proper research yet) In the case of Butterflies, we must remember that 1. - they are seen to have existed for over 40-50 million years and 2, - They are often born into the plant, they go through all stages of development on/in the specific plant and as adults they (some of them) continue to feed on the plants juices.
The plants is sort of their Lifesource/Mother-nurse and the specific plants are all it's made of and that process goes on for 3000-10,000+ plus how long extra??? years in the lives of a continuous lifeline of a specific same species.
I think we can show that diet and environment do play a significant role in influencing an organism's characteristics (some of them)?



Professor, your argument seems to suggest that because butterflies and other insects have close relationships with plants, this somehow means they can develop plant-like characteristics merely through consumption and development on these plants. This is a misunderstanding of how traits are inherited and how biological processes work. Traits are primarily passed down through genetic information, not directly acquired through consumption or development on specific substrates.

It's true that many butterfly species lay their eggs on specific host plants, and the larvae (caterpillars) feed on these plants. This specialized relationship is an example of symbiotic co-existence, where both the plant and the insect have specific traits that facilitate this relationship. However, this does not mean that the butterflies take on plant-like characteristics as a result of their diet.

While diet and environment do influence the development and characteristics of organisms (a concept known as phenotypic plasticity), this influence is typically within the range of the organism's genetic potential. For example, a caterpillar's diet can affect its size, color, and growth rate, but it won't transform it into a plant-like organism. There is a genetic range which biological organisms can adapt which is limited.
 

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The Engineered Adaptability of the Humble Guppy - Andrew McDiarmid


When a scientist switches from an evolutionary lens to an engineering one, it may be the mother of all eureka moments.
 

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The Engineered Adaptability of the Humble Guppy - Andrew McDiarmid


When a scientist switches from an evolutionary lens to an engineering one, it may be the mother of all eureka moments.
Dr. Reeves discusses her own eureka moment: “I had been so handicapped by not having some of those tool sets and not understanding design motifs that we know from engineering, like integral feedback or feed-forward loops…they could have been right before my eyes when I was studying the bacterial system and I would never have recognized it.”
 

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This remarkable behavior must be instinctual.
Instincts are algorithms.
Algorithms are instructions
Instructions are information
Information comes from a mind.

Ants in Florida perform life-saving surgery on their peers, scientists have discovered

 

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The concept of inheritance extends beyond the transmission of DNA sequences from parent to offspring.

Epigenetics, the study of heritable changes in gene expression that don't alter the DNA code itself, plays a crucial role in shaping an organism's development and health.

This discovery challenges the tenets of neo-Darwinian inheritance.

 

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