Who really killed Michael Collins?

Declan

Administrator
Staff member
Money or a video will take care of many but no doubt a certain number will betray because they were communists but could not admit it.
 
Yes, absolutely. The depressing thing in modern Ireland is that for so many politicians you don't need to do anything like that. They will just follow instructions from the EU and other international bodies, that will destroy Ireland and they either don't realise that, or just couldn't care less. By the way real Communists are active in modern Ireland too, for example in the history area, as is obvious from their writings.
 
And like if I was on a barstool in the US in say 1970, and said that about those 4 politicians, and threw in some facts like that Hoover was actually protecting the mafia in the FBI, and covering up for the JFK killers, which are all accepted facts to a wide number now like Roger Stone, then my listeners would literally consider me mad.

Modern day 'conspiracy theorists' are considered paranoid, sometimes I think we are not paranoid enough!
 

Declan

Administrator
Staff member
My big hope is that space flight will be proven impossible with the upcoming g flight.
 

Declan

Administrator
Staff member
They launch Artemis 1 this Sunday to fly around the moon unmanned and measure the radiation which may show that it is too lethal to pass through.
 

valamhic

Well-known member
Staff member
My big hope is that space flight will be proven impossible with the upcoming g flight.
Agreed,

Many people do not understand. It is one thing to get through the Van Allen belt in an hour, it another to live beyond the belt
for a week. Are you sure they are measuring radiation?
 

valamhic

Well-known member
Staff member
Right, on the morning of the 22n August 2022, Liam Deasey was leader of a crowd of Irregular anti treaty men. He had at his disposal
about 40 of them. DeVelera was in Cork, not Leitrim, not Carlow but Cork where there was strong resistance to the treaty,

By 5 pm there were at least 40 irregular volunteer troops at the scene. Their mission was to attack and kill every single person
forming part of Collin's escort. That included, Emmet Dalton the drivers of the vehicles. They knew the escort would fire back
but they had a vantage point being the high ground above. Most left and some went to the pub but a few stayed behind. Only one
person died. Had the battle went on all night, the pub crowd would have came back and killed all of the party trapped there..
 

valamhic

Well-known member
Staff member
Why would the irregulars not want to finish them all off??
They did, they intended to kill all if they were sure collins was dead they might not finish all all but to get at Collins they would have shot them
all in a firefight. That is my point he would have been killed any time from 5 pm to 8.45 pm. The weapon there would be a double barrelled shotgun. Go for the eyes with bird shot.
 
Usually they say that the ambush was kind of a defensive measure, to delay the Free State from capturing all the big anti-Treaty that were around the area. Also that the ambush had been called off effectively with only about 5 or 6 people hanging around (not including Sonny O'Neill it seems) who were alerted to the convoy by one of them firing into the air as a warning. That was in turn perceived as hostile by the convoy and hence the short 15 minute or so exchange of fire with those 5 or 6 guys. In that time nobody was injured on either side, apart from one small injury to I think motor bike rider, except for the one fatal exact bullet for Collins.

But anyway officialdom/academicdom is now going the way you have indicated. Before this it was Sonny O'Neill and now its a great conspiracy by the whole anti-Treaty IRA to entrap and kill Collins.

I am not so sure of that really, it was the British who really wanted him killed!
 

valamhic

Well-known member
Staff member
Ri
Usually they say that the ambush was kind of a defensive measure, to delay the Free State from capturing all the big anti-Treaty that were around the area. Also that the ambush had been called off effectively with only about 5 or 6 people hanging around (not including Sonny O'Neill it seems) who were alerted to the convoy by one of them firing into the air as a warning. That was in turn perceived as hostile by the convoy and hence the short 15 minute or so exchange of fire with those 5 or 6 guys. In that time nobody was injured on either side, apart from one small injury to I think motor bike rider, except for the one fatal exact bullet for Collins.

But anyway officialdom/academicdom is now going the way you have indicated. Before this it was Sonny O'Neill and now its a great conspiracy by the whole anti-Treaty IRA to entrap and kill Collins.

I am not so sure of that really, it was the British who really wanted him killed!


Right. Had Collins arrived an hour earlier, there were possibly 40 anti treaty volunteers waiting. They could only have one
objective and that was to kill as many of the troop as possible. They would also know that there would be a firefight and some of them would
also be dead after it. The object of all those had to be to kill all and especially Collins.

In that fight 20 of their numbers could be killed and 20 Collin's escort. Their hope was that luck would be on their side and they had more men than Collins had and they had the element of surprise. None of the 60 had any training or tactical expertise. Therefore the anti treaty
squad were there to kill all or be killed trying to do it.
 
But most of the people involved in this stage of the Irish Civil War had very extensive training. They typically emerged from either the First World War or War of Independence, and the latter veterans were training, quite intensively, from about 1913. Most of the time from the Truce to then would have been spent in training camps as well. My grandfather who fought in the Civil War was trained originally by a Boer War veteran in 1913/4.

In general the anti-Treaty side were not going to wait around and attempt to wipe out a convoy that had an armoured car with a heavy machine gun on a turret. You steered well clear of that armament unless you had artillery, which obviously they didn't.
 

valamhic

Well-known member
Staff member
But most of the people involved in this stage of the Irish Civil War had very extensive training. They typically emerged from either the First World War or War of Independence, and the latter veterans were training, quite intensively, from about 1913. Most of the time from the Truce to then would have been spent in training camps as well. My grandfather who fought in the Civil War was trained originally by a Boer War veteran in 1913/4.

In general the anti-Treaty side were not going to wait around and attempt to wipe out a convoy that had an armoured car with a heavy machine gun on a turret. You steered well clear of that armament unless you had artillery, which obviously they didn't.
For a start if they were in the British army they were not the real thick PIRA type. Real republicans would not join that army. Yes there were
a few who were British Army turned to Republicans. Emmet Dalton was one, but most were never in the British Army. In any event the British Army trained for drill and trench warfare and shooting skills. Not ambush of this type. The fact was there was a group of about 40 armed men
with mostly lee Enfield rifles at that spot earlier that evening and they were not there to negotiate. They were there to end the treaty and continue the war until the British conceded on the north, Their highest ranking leader was DeValera,

When Collins was dead, it was getting dark and it was dark by an hour later. Collins was in the Armoured car but got out. The attackers could have ran bit they did not run, that was because they intended to kill every single member of that party. They probably did not know who they had killed until the news was out. It was getting too hot for them to stay.
 

valamhic

Well-known member
Staff member
The Irish regulars had the same training as the irregulars and still they were overruled by Colins who wanted a fire fight as the scene.

All they had to do was drive on. All Collins had to do was stay in the armoured car. I was at the scene and had one man ran round ti
the road junction and up the hill he could have engaged the rebels there.

Even to this day, soldiers as rarely equipped with shotguns. These will blind any opponent up to 45 yards, the shotgun would be my choice of weapon for close combat.

Another question is why did Collins nit go to Leitrim and Dev to Carlow, why were they all in Cork? Getting rid of Collins was a big boost for Dev
 
No he was in an open "touring car", I think a Leyland. It was open meaning a canvass roof which was pulled down. True I don't think anybody had much training as sort of VIP protection, but for ambushes yes.

There were quite a few anti-Treaty people who were ex British army. The famous Sonny ONeill, not at the ambush but in the vicinity, as was Childers, an ex British Amy Major. Then you had Tom Barry, an ex BA Sergeant then in jail though, and believe it or not that side had a cavalry unit in Cork then. It was run by a cousin of Childers, I think Robinson, another ex BA Major.

The real role of Dev in this would be interesting to know. Some people say that in those years he was very much under the influence of Childers. Pat Moylett, who then or a short time later became head of the IRB, when he tried to contact Dev about negotiations with Lloyd George he was conducting, he was told only go through Childers, or some other ex British army officers.
 
This is from the 'Conspiracy Theories' book:

This was Pat Moylett, a Mayo businessman and long term political activist who conducted negotiations on behalf of Griffith with the British Cabinet in 1920, who described how Dev had set up a kind of kitchen cabinet including Childers, who was also a Major in the British army, as Director of Publicity, Major Robinson, his cousin “just retired from the British army”, as secretary of the White Cross and:
“We had a new star arise over the Republican horizon in the shape of John Chartres, a man who had been sent to Ireland by Lloyd George on a secret service mission in reference to munitions. We also had Mr.Smith-Gordon, an Englishman, who was appointed M.D. of the National Land Bank, and one or two other visitors of the same ilk. These were put up as an inner cabinet or advisory board by Mr. de Valera."
(p.121-2)
...
“I tried to see Mr. de Valera through various channels, but on each occasion I was sent back to Erskine Childers as I was informed he was the only man that could make an appointment for me with Dev.” (p.147.)
 
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