The causes behind the new Catholic Revival

[Mad as Fish]

Thats definitely the case Seek, it has nothing to do with the current leadership.

For example in Ireland they are busy closing down Dioceses and going on about 'Synodality', meaning they are hoping to copy the Anglican way of dissapearing into oblivion, but you would never hear anybody say these things have helped this surge.

Remember the Church isn't a political party, simply put, its the truth. Its a bit like its a truth to say if you borrow money from a bank you have to pay it back. You could spend years, decades, living the highlife on borrowed money but that 'truth' will come back to hit you in the end.

The truth is you have a soul, which would like to get to heaven, and is impeded in such progress by sin and demons and what have you. That is the real world, that is the truth of your existence, and while you could spend decades ignoring it or fighting it, in the long run the truth will catch up with you.

To me it sounds more like exhaustion than a deliberate attempt to close down the church, where is the young blood to follow on and replace the present clergy? With so few showing any interest in the priesthood it must at least be demoralising to realise that as the present crop expires there are so few to carry on? Could it be that it is more a matter of putting ones affairs in order before the final call, rather than a conspiracy?

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

To me it sounds more like exhaustion than a deliberate attempt to close down the church, where is the young blood to follow on and replace the present clergy? With so few showing any interest in the priesthood it must at least be demoralising to realise that as the present crop expires there are so few to carry on? Could it be that it is more a matter of putting ones affairs in order before the final call, rather than a conspiracy?

i have met some terrific women who are very learned and hard working and sincere -- i would have no problem having a female priest --its staring them in the face what has to be done - i do not understand the problem.

 

[Mad as Fish]

i have met some terrific women who are very learned and hard working and sincere -- i would have no problem having a female priest --its staring them in the face what has to be done - i do not understand the problem.

Probaly the fact that the opposition is already doing so.

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

Converts are more trad than born Catholics. Carrie Prejean Boller is only a convert a year or two and she is picking a fight with two top bishops. She's calling them out as effeminate homosexuals. Very funny exchange online.

Every convert knows that the USP of Christianity is the Whipping (of the Jews) in the Temple. Every convert to catholicism venerates St Hugh of Lincoln and St Simon of Trent.

If you nose, you nose. Na h-abair tada.

when you research it --it turns out the temple was a mafia racket and the sons of Caiaphas the current priest who presided over the trial of Jesus and the last high priest annas sons both owned/controlled the stalls and shops of the temple .
the poor would bring their best animals for sacrifice to god but the TEMPLE INSPECTORS would deem them unsuitable and they were forced to buy diseased half dead animals at 3 times the true cost and then received a pittance for their own .
the TEMPLE COIN did not have Herod's head on it and and nobody wished to use the WRONG COIN for sacrifice and there ""was always a shortage "" and the rate of exchange trebled in 2 years of the temple coin being introduced .
this is why Christ used cords of rope to clear these conmen and knackers from the temple and of course this is what got him killed .
You dont mess with the mafia -- it is this that has the jews upset as this explains their methods used to the present day -they have no morality -none.

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

But anyway just on the subject of the great Irish Church architecture that preceded the post Vatican II wrecking ball, I thought I'd put up here a few pics from the Parish Church of Trim, where I was at mass today, built I think about 1910.
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lovely bright church -- there was a very strong Celtic art revival at that time and its great to see it survived .
good photos very clear -- the church is well painted and well maintained and I am a fan of art deco --I think it is very tasteful and has lovely proportions in everything .

 

[Tiger]

i agree with what you write about the architecture --with a passion and a clarity thats lovely to read .
as a young person who served mass i was the last in my locality to have been instructed in Latin and what responses to make and when and had to learn the language as to ring the bell and other tasks were dependent on monitoring the Latin and responding -- it was horrific gobbledygook and annoyed me intensely .
i reasoned i was not permitted to understand what was going on and the deliberate use of a language that only one person in the church spoke was an insult to the religion and those who wished to follow it.
this extended to the practice of turning your back on the people --and when Vatican 2 came i experienced such liberation from the drudgery of the Latin .
a day after people wondered why such a daft thing had ever been decided on .
and were we not entitled to know what was being said to us and what was being said on our behalf .
nobody would buy a car from a salesman who turned his back on you and a priest was no different --- the people now looked at the face which was speaking to them in a language they could understand and they felt they had finally got some little respect as they could now assess the sincerity of the person while listening to his words AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT WAS ACKNOWLEDGED THEY HAD THIS ENTITLEMENT .
the mad rush to modernize--- to embrace progress was embraced by all and we went to unpainted concrete sheds which had random broken pieces of coloured glass fused together and the illogical chaotic nature of it appealed to us and liberated us from the classical forms which were now being rejected .
not because they were ugly but were seen as dark and oppressive .
the new buildings were a joy on a summers day and Ireland looked well in the sunlight for a change as no classical church was capable of allowing light /sunshine on the worshippers .
People generally do not read for knowledge nor are curious enough to research .
therefore the subtleties of architecture/politics/medicine/mental health/ morality /ethics/law are never discussed in detail or with any knowledge that would lead to an informed opinion .
the MODERN church architecture was a response by management to rebrand the company and relaunch it with priests with flared trousers long hair and loads and loads of broken coloured glass in the walls roof everywhere and most of all as quick as possible,
as the church felt the earthquake of the young generation who for the first time GAVE THEMSELVES THE PERMISSION TO LIVE AS THEY CHOOSE.
and this permission did not include the catholic church ,
seen as oppressive and dark /foreign language speaking repressive -fanatical /cultish wealthy /powerful /educated /opinionated /entitled elite .
in short everything the hippy generation and the mild flared trousered smiling majority of the 1970 s Abba generation despised .
the concrete sheds and the smiling singing priests who looked at you while the sun traversed the sky and one moment lit your granny in blue but in a few moments entertained all by lighting her in vivid red -- mass was no longer boring and our homes did not allow such light to enter and we somehow felt IMPROVED by being there .
we now have moved on a little and we now expect more from our architects and the church has to and has i think learned that the architecture of the building must now admit light -- not be a frozen hall - you have to hear with clarity what is being said in all locations at LOW volume .
security is now an issue and building maintenance is unaffoardble to the locals or the main church body for almost the lifetime of the building .
how do you project the current requirement of humility in a cathedral -- its not possible .

BFH, while I think you’re right to describe the feeling of liberation people experienced at the time; however that doesn’t mean the changes themselves were either necessary or healthy for the Faith. What you’re describing is less a simple “translation into English” and more a wholesale redefinition of what the Mass actually is.

The Novus Ordo is not simply a translation of the traditional Latin mass. It’s an entirely new liturgy.

Firstly, on Latin. It wasn’t there to exclude people, it was there to unify and protect the Faith. For centuries, whether you were in Ireland, France, Africa, or Asia, the Mass was the same. A Catholic could walk into any church, anywhere in the world and know exactly what was happening. That universality matters. More importantly, Latin is a dead language, so it doesn’t change. That means the meaning of the prayers can’t drift over time the way vernacular languages do. In a religion built on precise doctrine, that stability is a safeguard, not an insult. If any saint from past centuries turned up today and attended a post Vatican 2 new order (Novus Ordo) rite; they wouldn't know what religion it was and certainly wouldn't think its Catholic. They'd be confused.

And it's worth saying that understanding wasn’t absent, either. People followed the Mass with missals (with the English translation, side by side with the Latin), catechesis, and familiarity. The idea that Catholics for 1,500 years were just sitting in ignorance doesn’t really hold up. My kids could follow the Latin mass at 6 or 7 years of age. It's incredibly simple.

The priest facing the altar, rather than the people, also wasn’t about “turning his back.” He was leading the people in prayer, all facing the same direction, toward God on the cross on Calvary, when the priest faces the other way, he's turning his back on God on the Cross. It is a re-enactment of Calvalry. It was a shared orientation, not a performance. When that changed, the focus subtly shifted: the priest became more like a presenter addressing an audience, rather than a mediator offering sacrifice. The new liturgy and priestly actions suggest that the mass itself is more than likely illicit.

Now, the deeper issue: the post–Vatican II reforms didn’t just “happen.” The new liturgy; the Novus Ordo, was largely shaped by a masonic infiltrator called - Annibale Bugnini, a figure who has long been controversial, including allegations (with considerable evidence) of Masonic associations. What’s not disputed is that he deliberately brought in Protestant observers during the reform process, and the resulting rite removed or softened many explicitly Catholic elements; especially references to sacrifice, sin, and the priest’s unique role. The Freemason Bugnini and his Protestant advisors formed a new liturgy which can only be described as a 'new religion'.

That’s why many see the new Mass as constructed to be more acceptable to non-Catholics rather than as a faithful organic development of tradition.

Even small details reflect a shift in spirit. The introduction of things like the “sign of peace”, that handshake moment, might seem harmless, but it changes the atmosphere from something sacred and vertical to something social and horizontal. It mimics the masonic 'handshake'. Someone was amusing themselves adding that to the liturgy.

As for whether Second Vatican Council was a success: that depends on what you think its goal was. If it was meant to usher in a “new springtime for the church,” the results speak for themselves, mass attendance collapsed, vocations declined, belief in core doctrines weakened. Ireland is a prime example of that trajectory.

But if the aim; intentionally or otherwise, was to dilute, modernise, and ultimately weaken the traditional Faith, then yes, you could argue it succeeded remarkably well.

The Church prior to Vatican 2 was soaring with all-time high mass attendances and conversions. This nosedived after Vatican 2. Pretty much immediately. Vatican 2 was a monumental failure.

So the 1960's “hippy moment” wasn’t just about making things easier to understand. It was about changing the entire orientation of Catholic life, from something sacred, stable, and transcendent into something adaptable, accessible, and, ultimately, far less anchored.

It has been a monumental failure.

 

[Tiger]

View: https://youtu.be/pkWvrq0t6FE?si=5D_pRtWBS7bSnRGa

 

[Diarmuid]

Even small details reflect a shift in spirit. The introduction of things like the “sign of peace”, that handshake moment, might seem harmless, but it changes the atmosphere from something sacred and vertical to something social and horizontal. It mimics the masonic 'handshake'. Someone was amusing themselves adding that to the liturgy.

Achoimre iontach, GRMA.

I used to love the "sign of peace". But not so much now. Presumably, in the old days, the handshakes would be left until after the Mass and people were chatting outside?

Was this a total innovation? Was it based on anything in the original mass?

Allowing priests to marry would be a big improvement: when they brought in celibacy a thousand years ago, some priests of the time called it a homosexual conspiracy.

Women priests seem a bad idea, though I can't quite explain why. Maybe it's because the priest has to be ready to sacrifice his own life. Women's lives are more valuable than men's, from a tribal survival viewpoint.

 

[Mad as Fish]

BFH, while I think you’re right to describe the feeling of liberation people experienced at the time; however that doesn’t mean the changes themselves were either necessary or healthy for the Faith. What you’re describing is less a simple “translation into English” and more a wholesale redefinition of what the Mass actually is.

The Novus Ordo is not simply a translation of the traditional Latin mass. It’s an entirely new liturgy.

Firstly, on Latin. It wasn’t there to exclude people, it was there to unify and protect the Faith. For centuries, whether you were in Ireland, France, Africa, or Asia, the Mass was the same. A Catholic could walk into any church, anywhere in the world and know exactly what was happening. That universality matters. More importantly, Latin is a dead language, so it doesn’t change. That means the meaning of the prayers can’t drift over time the way vernacular languages do. In a religion built on precise doctrine, that stability is a safeguard, not an insult. If any saint from past centuries turned up today and attended a post Vatican 2 new order (Novus Ordo) rite; they wouldn't know what religion it was and certainly wouldn't think its Catholic. They'd be confused.

And it's worth saying that understanding wasn’t absent, either. People followed the Mass with missals (with the English translation, side by side with the Latin), catechesis, and familiarity. The idea that Catholics for 1,500 years were just sitting in ignorance doesn’t really hold up. My kids could follow the Latin mass at 6 or 7 years of age. It's incredibly simple.

The priest facing the altar, rather than the people, also wasn’t about “turning his back.” He was leading the people in prayer, all facing the same direction, toward God on the cross on Calvary, when the priest faces the other way, he's turning his back on God on the Cross. It is a re-enactment of Calvalry. It was a shared orientation, not a performance. When that changed, the focus subtly shifted: the priest became more like a presenter addressing an audience, rather than a mediator offering sacrifice. The new liturgy and priestly actions suggest that the mass itself is more than likely illicit.

Now, the deeper issue: the post–Vatican II reforms didn’t just “happen.” The new liturgy; the Novus Ordo, was largely shaped by a masonic infiltrator called - Annibale Bugnini, a figure who has long been controversial, including allegations (with considerable evidence) of Masonic associations. What’s not disputed is that he deliberately brought in Protestant observers during the reform process, and the resulting rite removed or softened many explicitly Catholic elements; especially references to sacrifice, sin, and the priest’s unique role. The Freemason Bugnini and his Protestant advisors formed a new liturgy which can only be described as a 'new religion'.

That’s why many see the new Mass as constructed to be more acceptable to non-Catholics rather than as a faithful organic development of tradition.

Even small details reflect a shift in spirit. The introduction of things like the “sign of peace”, that handshake moment, might seem harmless, but it changes the atmosphere from something sacred and vertical to something social and horizontal. It mimics the masonic 'handshake'. Someone was amusing themselves adding that to the liturgy.

As for whether Second Vatican Council was a success: that depends on what you think its goal was. If it was meant to usher in a “new springtime for the church,” the results speak for themselves, mass attendance collapsed, vocations declined, belief in core doctrines weakened. Ireland is a prime example of that trajectory.

But if the aim; intentionally or otherwise, was to dilute, modernise, and ultimately weaken the traditional Faith, then yes, you could argue it succeeded remarkably well.

The Church prior to Vatican 2 was soaring with all-time high mass attendances and conversions. This nosedived after Vatican 2. Pretty much immediately. Vatican 2 was a monumental failure.

So the 1960's “hippy moment” wasn’t just about making things easier to understand. It was about changing the entire orientation of Catholic life, from something sacred, stable, and transcendent into something adaptable, accessible, and, ultimately, far less anchored.

It has been a monumental failure.

Always found the handshake thingy slightly embarrassing, more happy clappy than sacred.

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

Always found the handshake thingy slightly embarrassing, more happy clappy than sacred.

in my neck of the woods it is theatre sometimes where some renowned bolix would turn and laugh as he offered his hand and people desperately turned to get a handshake from someone anyone but the tittering nightmare in front of them .
i always enjoy small kids with a big smile 4 feet below you offering their hand for a laugh in a safe environment and enjoying the big smiles in return .
i never associated the masons with the handshake and i thought in the background it had something to do with Northern Ireland which raged for much of my life and the sign of peace was the only time in the week we made a formal effort to respect peace.

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

Achoimre iontach, GRMA.

I used to love the "sign of peace". But not so much now. Presumably, in the old days, the handshakes would be left until after the Mass and people were chatting outside?

Was this a total innovation? Was it based on anything in the original mass?

Allowing priests to marry would be a big improvement: when they brought in celibacy a thousand years ago, some priests of the time called it a homosexual conspiracy.

Women priests seem a bad idea, though I can't quite explain why. Maybe it's because the priest has to be ready to sacrifice his own life. Women's lives are more valuable than men's, from a tribal survival viewpoint.

There have been instances of coordinated homosexual revolt /control in the church and pope Ratzinger resigned in the face of such a revolt .
the Irish college in Rome had to put down an insurrection in the past few years and I do not know if it has won or lost the war yet .

 

[Tiger]

View: https://youtu.be/4yjEQPX_Y-U?si=60U4o7FHDbNOuC1m

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

The Church prior to Vatican 2 was soaring with all-time high mass attendances and conversions. This nosedived after Vatican 2. Pretty much immediately. Vatican 2 was a monumental failure.

thank you for your great post -- it is sincere and considered and I have read it a number of times -I also watched the video underneath and enjoyed listening to it -and again I do not doubt the sincerity and goodness which motivates you .
in order for you to understand where I come from I am going to use a formal protestant term for parishioners THE ORDINARY .
I come from a mining village which is unique in Ireland for many reasons -it was the only true industrial town in Ireland where the majority 690 men worked a 3 shift system underground and their wives had to wash and cook and cater for 3 shifts in 24 hours every week as in large families you had 5-7 sons and their father in the mines .
the mine was the ESBs biggest customer for the 1940s and 50s to give scale.
people were up all night -people drank 24/7 and fought 24/7 --there were no miner priests or teachers .
everyone who was not a miner was a parasite on the miners in one shape or other --in reality and seen as such and were the enemy .
during a long miners strike which lasted over 6 months the miners sunk bell pits in the corners of farmers fields and mined coal near the surface and sold it to provide food for their families and they brewed poteen themselves and the public responded by buying the coal for cash and the farmers knew this was a battle for survival by the native Irish against English military owners of the mine the Wandesfords and they remained silent naturally .
the last resort by the Wandesfords was to crush the strike using the Catholic church -- assisted by the local politicians / media who despised the miners and their openly communist leader Nixy Boran .
who founded a miners co operative/soviet which employed 23 at its height selling flour salt butter all the essentials at WHOLESALE to miners families who had shares in the soviet .
this of course drove all shopkeepers insane in the 3 counties surrounding the mine as it exposed them naked .
you always knew a true witness to what happened as they would place their two hands forward outstretched to mimic the bishop who went through the town which had the streets lined with people to witness the passage of the bishop with both hands outstretched on his upright cane while he looked straight ahead and ignored the thousands of people intently looking at him.
he reached Monenroe church -home of the soviet and the core of the strikers and it was announced in the weeks previous he was going to excommunicate the commune--- ists as they were locally known as as people had no working knowledge of either socialism or the catholic faith both were a mystery to them in reality .
the church was packed to the gills and a great deal of poteen had been consumed to fortify for the immanent journey to hell as announced previously .
the bishop took a considered look at his audience who smelled of 100 proof poteen and who regarded him as an paid oppressor and he panicked and ran suddenly from the pulpit -- as he suddenly correctly formed the view the ordinary would/could send him to hell also.
this was the end of the strike and the miners correctly formed the view they had beaten the establishment and it reinforced their /our/local view the church was a establishment parasite which openly despised them and their struggle .
(and the bishop responded by stealing over 250,000 gathered from the locals/miners/parish to refurbish the local church)
the miners were a formidable physical force in reality.
and spent their days on their side deep underground mining a coal seam which was never more than 24 inches high and who had to wear string on the bottom of their trousers to prevent the thousands of fearless rats from journeying up the legs of their trousers.
the miners were not working class they were several rungs below working class they were MINING CLASS which is a totally different animal.
this was my childhood where the church was seen as the establishment /parasites/not fully or even partially involved with mining culture or openly Sympatico with it .
from this perspective of the ORDINARY you are a literate/ educated/intelligent thoughtful person who belong to a foreign elite class of people such as the doctor or solicitor/teacher who DID use their leather bound missals during mass and could speed read in two languages.
the ordinary self imposed a destructive discipline on themselves to separate them from this practice of who they regarded as parasites at great personal cost to themselves and their families.
even though Latin is a modus opperandi in our medical and legal lives and terminology I agree it is a dead language in general terms and as such it should be allowed its undisturbed grave -to resurrect it for incomprehensible use amongst the ordinary is not a positive for them as they are not an intellectual elite like yourself and over 50% of americans and others do not read a book generally. .
the meaning of prayer is not universal in my experience and women in particular tailor prayer to meet their current familial needs /fears and always naturally in their local language as how otherwise do they implore god with the required eloquence /passion to make him hear the prayer .
I am not being critical but from the depths of a rat infested mine I speak broken foul mouthed English from an place which its dust prevents you from seeing your fellow man from more than 3 feet away --and you expect me to allow the luxury of a dead language into my life to luxuriate in the intellectual ecstasy of using the spare mental horsepower not required for dealing with the rats in YOUR MINE .
this bridge cannot be crossed by the ordinary -it is too far to journey for them and me who ultimately must in Christian faith side with them .
what escapes the catholic church is that it is currently opposed to christ and his teaching -- he would be imprisoned or killed today quicker than he was killed then .
in the UK today Palestine action people in wheel chairs are thrown in jail for merely holding a sign protesting the slaughter of Christ's people in his holy land .
christ was opposed to usury -why does the church have several banks laundering Billions of drug money for the drug cartels /murderers of the common people --
polish pope john paul praised the utterly corrupt and criminal vatican minister of finance ( archbishop Marchinkus )who had 15 FBI sample arrest warrants issued against him -- and stated he was a hero for the church and the church could not do its GOOD works without his EXPERTISE .
what is wrong with the present church is its lack of true Christianity -if it had the true radical Christ led principles it would require at least 4 times the present churches it has to cope with TRUE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST .
imagine a world without war / central banks / usury / where the trillions spent on bullshit DEFENCE now belonged to the people .
what a glorious peaceful wealthy life we would have .
you have to accept that whenever true christian leaders emerged they were executed by the establishment who included the supplicant and silent catholic/protestant/ methodist/jewish /muslim churches .
when Christ returns he better be wearing body armour and be well armed as we are currently very visibly ruled by the worshippers of the golden calf .