Tuam excavation begins

[Haven]

Exactly. That’s how graveyards work.

Unfortunately infant mortality was depressingly high during the first half of the 20th Century in Ireland; 80 deaths per 1000, which is grim.

Add in that children arrived in poor health, that there was a high level of infectious disease in the overcrowded conditions and limited medical resources, it was an unfortunate place to be. I guess having a designated graveyard made sense.

Or….,do you have another theory? Do you think there was human sacrifice ceremonies?

its always been known its a graveyard. Theres a memorial there. Is this news to you?

My theory is that it would have been better if the mothers had not been forced to give them up.

https://imj.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/The-Mother-and-Baby-Homes-Commission-of-Investigation-Final-Report.pdf

"The national infant mortality (number of infant deaths aged under 1 year per 1,000 live births)
in Ireland decade-on-decade was: 1930 – 70/1000, 1940 – 65/1000, 1950 – 44/1000, 1960 –
30/1000, 1970 – 20/1000, 1980 – 12/1000, 1990 – 7/1000, 2000 – 6/1000, 2010 – 3.5/1000, The corresponding infant mortality rates at Bessborough were 1930 – 300/1000, 1940 –
750/1000, 1950 – 100/1000, 1960 – 100/1000, 1970 – 20/1000, 1980 – 20/1000, 1990 –
20/1000.

From 1930 to 1970 the mortality rates were markedly higher in the institution
compared with the national rates. After 1970 the gap narrowed but remained higher than
expected. Similar patterns are encountered in the other Homes. In Roscrea, 1090 out of 6079
infants died.

The infant mortality rate is a critical measurement for any country, region or institution. It is a
robust benchmark of the standard of care being provided to young infants. High rates are
indicative of unmet human healthcare needs in sanitation, nutrition, education, and medical
care."

"There is a notable observation in the Report that the infant mortality rate was higher among
infants of mothers who entered the home in a private capacity. These mothers tended to
discharge themselves shortly after the birth, leaving the infant behind to be cared for in the
institution."

I'm glad you acknowlege that it had "overcrowded conditions and limited medical resources, it was an unfortunate place to be."

We are making progress.

 

[Diarmuid]

We are making progress.

No comment on the dead children in the ten years to 2026? No comment on Garda Deirdre Finn, RIP? No comment on paki rape gangs operating from your local kebab/vape shop?

Touchy subject for those with a guilty conscience. Fillean an feall ag an feallaire, ma tuigeann tu sin.

 

[Haven]

No comment on the dead children in the ten years to 2026? No comment on Garda Deirdre Finn, RIP? No comment on paki rape gangs operating from your local kebab/vape shop?

Touchy subject for those with a guilty conscience. Fillean an feall ag an feallaire, ma tuigeann tu sin.

Why do you feel guilty?

 

[scolairebocht]

They were not forced to hand over the children after the year they were there, about half did but there was no compulsion.

 

[Diarmuid]

Why do you feel guilty?

My conscience is clear. How about you?

Why are people like you so silent on the disappearance (from State care) and presumable murder of children NOW? You comment on everything under the sun, but not the mysterious death of your garda colleague Deirdre Finn. Has the report been released yet? Your silence implies complicity. No matter how loyal you are to covering up the Judaeo-Paki rape gangs in Ireland, they will slit your throat if and when it suits them.

Rupert Lowe, MP for Yarmouth, revealed the Brit state's complicity in Judaeo-Paki rape gangs in their parliament just a few days ago. You're a west Brit and culturally English like our politicians, so it stands to reason that exactly the same is happening here and that you are complicit.

Mo seacht naire thu!

 

[Haven]

My conscience is clear. How about you?

Why are people like you so silent on the disappearance (from State care) and presumable murder of children NOW? You comment on everything under the sun, but not the mysterious death of your garda colleague Deirdre Finn. Has the report been released yet? Your silence implies complicity. No matter how loyal you are to covering up the Judaeo-Paki rape gangs in Ireland, they will slit your throat if and when it suits them.

Rupert Lowe, MP for Yarmouth, revealed the Brit state's complicity in Judaeo-Paki rape gangs in their parliament just a few days ago. You're a west Brit and culturally English like our politicians, so it stands to reason that exactly the same is happening here and that you are complicit.

Mo seacht naire thu!

Diarmuid, do you have any actual evidence for any of this?

 

[Tiger]

its always been known its a graveyard. Theres a memorial there. Is this news to you?

My theory is that it would have been better if the mothers had not been forced to give them up.

https://imj.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/The-Mother-and-Baby-Homes-Commission-of-Investigation-Final-Report.pdf

"The national infant mortality (number of infant deaths aged under 1 year per 1,000 live births)
in Ireland decade-on-decade was: 1930 – 70/1000, 1940 – 65/1000, 1950 – 44/1000, 1960 –
30/1000, 1970 – 20/1000, 1980 – 12/1000, 1990 – 7/1000, 2000 – 6/1000, 2010 – 3.5/1000, The corresponding infant mortality rates at Bessborough were 1930 – 300/1000, 1940 –
750/1000, 1950 – 100/1000, 1960 – 100/1000, 1970 – 20/1000, 1980 – 20/1000, 1990 –
20/1000.

From 1930 to 1970 the mortality rates were markedly higher in the institution
compared with the national rates. After 1970 the gap narrowed but remained higher than
expected. Similar patterns are encountered in the other Homes. In Roscrea, 1090 out of 6079
infants died.

The infant mortality rate is a critical measurement for any country, region or institution. It is a
robust benchmark of the standard of care being provided to young infants. High rates are
indicative of unmet human healthcare needs in sanitation, nutrition, education, and medical
care."

"There is a notable observation in the Report that the infant mortality rate was higher among
infants of mothers who entered the home in a private capacity. These mothers tended to
discharge themselves shortly after the birth, leaving the infant behind to be cared for in the
institution."

I'm glad you acknowlege that it had "overcrowded conditions and limited medical resources, it was an unfortunate place to be."

We are making progress.

Progress towards what exactly?

The discovery that the home was run by serial killer nuns?

 

[Diarmuid]

Diarmuid, do you have any actual evidence for any of this?

It is common knowledge that Deirdre Finn was a member of the Gardai and that she died in a boat fire in Carrick on Shannon. The court cases she was involved are also a matter of public record.

Are you a Deirdre Finn denier? Are you a Judaeo-Paki rape gang denier? Rupert Lowe gave the evidence in the sasenach parliament.

 

[SeekTheFairLand]

Oh look more muppets to join the site’s roving reporter and staunch Catholic defender of the rights of the nuns to bury dead babies anywhere they like, Mister Brian Nugent.


Oh good. It was probably after their Tuesday cookie bake night when they were in a good mood.

Roc is more use to little babies being buried under 100s of tonnes of apartment block rubble

 

[Tiger]

Roc is more use to little babies being buried under 100s of tonnes of apartment block rubble

Aye.

It’s probably worth mentioning that both @Roc. and @Haven both are cheerleaders for the 47,000 babies murdered in Irish abortion clinics since 2019.

Both have voted to make killing Irish babies legal.

 

[Haven]

It is common knowledge that Deirdre Finn was a member of the Gardai and that she died in a boat fire in Carrick on Shannon. The court cases she was involved are also a matter of public record.

Are you a Deirdre Finn denier? Are you a Judaeo-Paki rape gang denier? Rupert Lowe gave the evidence in the sasenach parliament.

So....no actual evidence. Grand.

 

[Haven]

Aye.

It’s probably worth mentioning that both @Roc. and @Haven both are cheerleaders for the 47,000 babies murdered in Irish abortion clinics since 2019.

Both have voted to make killing Irish babies legal.

Your immigrant role-model China has abortion too.

Could China be wrong on this? And if they are, why would we hold up China as a role model for anything?

 

[Tiger]

Your immigrant role-model China has abortion too.

More strawman shite from you. You literally have no other method of debate.

Could China be wrong on this? And if they are, why would we hold up China as a role model for anything?

The point of bringing your stance on abortion into this discussion was to juxtapose your own faux outrage at babies who died from disease and were buried in a graveyard versus the purposeful murder of tens of thousands of Irish babies.

Babies which are not afforded a burial, but instead are treated as ‘medical waste’.

 

[Haven]

More strawman shite from you. You literally have no other method of debate.

The point of bringing your stance on abortion into this discussion was to juxtapose your own faux outrage at babies who died from disease and were buried in a graveyard versus the purposeful murder of tens of thousands of Irish babies.

Babies which are not afforded a burial, but instead are treated as ‘medical waste’.

I'm merely pointing out how you pick and choose to make your arguments, and you are no stranger to muddying the waters yourself, turning a thread about Mother and Baby home negligence into a discussion about abortion.

 

[Tiger]

I'm merely pointing out how you pick and choose to make your arguments, and you are no stranger to muddying the waters yourself, turning a thread about Mother and Baby home negligence into a discussion about abortion.

There a no muddying of waters.

Someone who advocates the murder of Irish babies and celebrates it, simply loses the moral integrity to have faux outrage over any infant deaths, particularly where murder is not involved. Simples.

You voted to kill Irish babies, so your opinion is null in void.

 

[Neptune]

There a no muddying of waters.

Someone who advocates the murder of Irish babies and celebrates it, simply loses the moral integrity to have faux outrage over any infant deaths, particularly where murder is not involved. Simples.

You voted to kill Irish babies, so your opinion is null in void.

Exactly, in the same way an abbatoir butcher is excluded from jury service for murder trials

 

[Haven]

There a no muddying of waters.

Someone who advocates the murder of Irish babies and celebrates it, simply loses the moral integrity to have faux outrage over any infant deaths, particularly where murder is not involved. Simples.

You voted to kill Irish babies, so your opinion is null in void.

Classic strawman.

How ironic.

 

[Tiger]

Classic strawman.

How ironic.

It’s not a strawman . It’s perfectly apt.

Nobody would look for or take seriously Charles Manson or Fred West’s opinion on the deaths of anyone for any reason.

You’re the same. You advocate and voted for and promoted the killing of innocent babies so you lose the moral integrity to comment on any infant deaths for any reason.

You’ve played your part in killing over 47,000 babies in Ireland, so we can’t and shouldn’t listen to your opinion on infant deaths.

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

It’s not a strawman . It’s perfectly apt.

Nobody would look for or take seriously Charles Manson or Fred West’s opinion on the deaths of anyone for any reason.

You’re the same. You advocate and voted for and promoted the killing of innocent babies so you lose the moral integrity to comment on any infant deaths for any reason.

You’ve played your part in killing over 47,000 babies in Ireland, so we can’t and shouldn’t listen to your opinion on infant deaths.

when you look at this it is a wet dream for the left ---
it can be shown what the truth is if looked at with the care it deserves but it has so many dream ingredients a septic tank in use ++ a unused underground chamber which had been used for sewage but no longer in use .
the decision of the nuns not to use graves and gravestones and coffins is probably linked to the lack of money from the families to do so .
the question why the infants WERE ABANDONED BY THEIR FAMILY AND BY THEIR LARGER EXTENDED FAMILY is not discussed by anyone .
an average family would have at least 30 members between family and extended family and their role is not explored by the left .
the role of the garda to protect those in mental hospitals-- regular hospitals and orphanages --who are at their most vulnerable while in care --is not discussed .
the district nurse has a role of responsibility as do the health board who have a direct responsibility here -- this is not addressed and they have a supervisory role in a population which has no family to protect them .
the doctor in charge of this institution bear a great responsibility as the infants can be sold for large sums and stated to have died as is recorded elsewhere .
this is a mine field for all concerned and i do not trust official Ireland to squeal on each other --it is likely there will be token condemnations of the nuns to satisfy the public but those who are really responsible will get off Scot free as usual.

 

[scolairebocht]

I don't believe any of these babies were 'sold' at all in any sense. Anyway the fact is that Tuam had a great reputation, all of the people involved would be very happy for the mother to give birth there because she, and her baby, was assured of being well looked after. And in fact they were, the now rapidly disintegrating story is just completely wrong in every particular, I would say anyway.

 

[Diarmuid]

The story I heard was that Council workmen uncovered the remains when they starting building council houses. They respectfully gathered them up and built a ossuary for them. This is the supposed sewage chamber.

 

[Tiger]

I don't believe any of these babies were 'sold' at all in any sense. Anyway the fact is that Tuam had a great reputation, all of the people involved would be very happy for the mother to give birth there because she, and her baby, was assured of being well looked after. And in fact they were, the now rapidly disintegrating story is just completely wrong in every particular, I would say anyway.

It’s also true that other Mother and Baby homes were used by pharmaceutical companies to test vaccines on babies as guinea pigs.

The media and the shit lib’s are noticeably silent on that.

 

[Haven]

It’s not a strawman . It’s perfectly apt.

Nobody would look for or take seriously Charles Manson or Fred West’s opinion on the deaths of anyone for any reason.

You’re the same. You advocate and voted for and promoted the killing of innocent babies so you lose the moral integrity to comment on any infant deaths for any reason.

You’ve played your part in killing over 47,000 babies in Ireland, so we can’t and shouldn’t listen to your opinion on infant deaths.

Its a classic strawman argument.

You combine Ad Hominem, False Equivalence, and Poisoning the Well, in one go. With a bit of Composition Fallacy as garnish. All served up on a dish as cold as your dead heart.

Will you try again? Third time's the charm!

 

[Haven]

A bit of history here.

Tuam babies: PR chief Terry Prone: ‘there appears to be a lot more to it’

Communications Clinic acts for Bon Secours religious order at centre of the investigation

www.irishtimes.com

View: https://youtu.be/348ytR5R3O0?si=AkbSz1NPEqhXayK9


Prone might be an awful piece of work but she did make amends on this.

 

[Haven]

It’s also true that other Mother and Baby homes were used by pharmaceutical companies to test vaccines on babies as guinea pigs.

The media and the shit lib’s are noticeably silent on that.

Wrong again!

Compensation scheme for medical trial victims at mother and baby homes to open, but GSK won’t contribute

Pharma giant GSK, whose predecessor companies profited from the trials, has so far resisted calls to contribute

www.irishtimes.com

7 vaccine trials took place in mother-and-baby homes

It has emerged that seven vaccine trials took place in the mother-and-baby homes that were under investigation between 1934 to 1973 with a number of children involved.

www.rte.ie

 

[Diarmuid]

Haven, The Irish Slimes is paywalled. Could you cut and paste the article here? Terry Prone is not a truthful person, IMO, but it would be interesting to read what she says.

The vaccine trials were mentioned in MSM, but very, very briefly. There is possibly a ratio of one to a hundred (or a thousand) mentions of vax to sewage tanks. And the blame for the vax damage is at the foot of the FFGLab people and the docs, and people like Haven, not the Christians. Were there any vax trials in Tuam?

The silly satanists/masons/homosexuals/jews have been infiltrating the Church for ages, so it makes sense that they would commit horrible crimes once they got in somewhere.

But it seems that no crimes were committed in Tuam, apart from possible vax trials. And Catherine Corless' cruel prank on one of the children - she wrapped a stone in a sweet wrapper and gave it to a child from the home, telling her it was a sweet.

 

[The Equalizer]

Well would you have a look at who likes it -

 

[Tiger]

Its a classic strawman argument.

Nope.

You combine Ad Hominem, False Equivalence, and Poisoning the Well, in one go. With a bit of Composition Fallacy as garnish. All served up on a dish as cold as your dead heart.

It’s not a false equivalence. It’s completely relevant.

You may compartmentalise your fondness and support for killing unborn Irish babies as being a separate issue. However those of us with IQ’s that are not room temperature can see the obvious relevance.

You can’t both not care about killing some babies (who are chucked away as medical waste with no dignified burial); but care deeply about other unfortunate babies who were not murdered and died from disease. That would be schizophrenic. Inconsistent as it were.


The only way I would be wrong, would be if you didn’t actually vote for and support abortion in Ireland. If you did, then why should we bother listen to you faux concerns? They’re empty.

 

[Haven]

Nope.

It’s not a false equivalence. It’s completely relevant.

You may compartmentalise your fondness and support for killing unborn Irish babies as being a separate issue. However those of us with IQ’s that are not room temperature can see the obvious relevance.

You can’t both not care about killing some babies (who are chucked away as medical waste with no dignified burial); but care deeply about other unfortunate babies who were not murdered and died from disease. That would be schizophrenic. Inconsistent as it were.


The only way I would be wrong, would be if you didn’t actually vote for and support abortion in Ireland. If you did, then why should we bother listen to you faux concerns? They’re empty.

Its a bunch of logical fallacies all strung together. You even dig up old Fred West.

Tiger, by your logic, if you don't hold a full funeral for every single natural miscarriage (which happens in up to 20% of pregnancies), you aren't allowed to care about infant mortality either.

 

[Tiger]

Its a bunch of logical fallacies all strung together. You even dig up old Fred West.

Tiger, by your logic, if you don't hold a full funeral for every single natural miscarriage (which happens in up to 20% of pregnancies), you aren't allowed to care about infant mortality either.

Nope.

That's not the same logic at all. A natural miscarriage and an abortion are fundamentally different categories of event.

A miscarriage is obviously an unintended natural death. Nobody chooses it, causes it, or wills it to happen. An abortion is a deliberate act undertaken with the intention of ending the pregnancy.

So the comparison only works if you ignore the distinction between natural death and intentional killing. We don't treat deaths from natural causes and deliberate acts as morally equivalent in any other area of life, and there's no reason to do so here.

Whether or not someone holds a funeral after a miscarriage has no bearing on the question of whether a purposeful abortion is morally different from a natural loss.

You're clutching at straws Mr. Strawman.

 

[Haven]

Nope.

That's not the same logic at all. A natural miscarriage and an abortion are fundamentally different categories of event.

A miscarriage is obviously an unintended natural death. Nobody chooses it, causes it, or wills it to happen. An abortion is a deliberate act undertaken with the intention of ending the pregnancy.

So the comparison only works if you ignore the distinction between natural death and intentional killing. We don't treat deaths from natural causes and deliberate acts as morally equivalent in any other area of life, and there's no reason to do so here.

Whether or not someone holds a funeral after a miscarriage has no bearing on the question of whether a purposeful abortion is morally different from a natural loss.

You're clutching at straws Mr. Strawman.

Exactly—you just proved my point. If intent and context change the morality of a death, then you can't ignore them here.

In no other part of life do we force someone to act as a literal life-support system for another against their will. Supporting a woman's right to her own body while also caring about a sick child isn't a contradiction; it’s recognizing that these are fundamentally different situations. You want nuance for miscarriages, but you're refusing it for abortions.

You just don't want to follow your argument to its logical conclusion.

 

[The Equalizer]

Exactly—you just proved my point. If intent and context change the morality of a death, then you can't ignore them here.

In no other part of life do we force someone to act as a literal life-support system for another against their will.

Supporting a woman's right to her own body

To do with it as she so pleases, such as killing another human being?

Haven, outside of abortion, such cases are only legally conferred as an act of self-defence.

while also caring about a sick child isn't a contradiction; it’s recognizing that these are fundamentally different situations. You want nuance for miscarriages, but you're refusing it for abortions.

You just don't want to follow your argument to its logical conclusion.

 

[Tiger]

Exactly—you just proved my point.

Haha! You’ve left a little bit of your AI response there pal Can you spot it?

If intent and context change the morality of a death, then you can't ignore them here.

This is where your AI tried to change the subject.

In no other part of life do we force someone to act as a literal life-support system

A ‘life-support system” ? - even for an AI response, that’s a pretty low bar way to describe a pregnant woman. Fuck me.

for another against their will. Supporting a woman's right to her own body while also caring about a sick child isn't a contradiction; it’s recognizing that these are fundamentally different situations. You want nuance for miscarriages, but you're refusing it for abortions.

You just don't want to follow your argument to its logical conclusion.

My point was precisely that miscarriage and abortion are not the same thing. A miscarriage is a natural death; an abortion is an intentional act.

You (your AI) haven't refuted that distinction; you've (they’ve) just tried to introduce a bodily autonomy argument.

And referring to pregnancy as being a "literal life-support system" is revealing even if it was concocted by AI, you read it and chose to leave it in there. Most people would describe pregnancy as a mother carrying her child, not as one human being reduced to a piece of medical equipment.

That's precisely why we can justifiably question the sincerity of your outrage. You pretend to speak emotionally about babies who died in Tuam, yet describe the natural relationship between a mother and her unborn child in entirely mechanistic terms.

I’m glad that I brought it up. The inconsistency is obvious.

 

[The Equalizer]

Its a bunch of logical fallacies all strung together. You even dig up old Fred West.

Tiger, by your logic, if you don't hold a full funeral for every single natural miscarriage (which happens in up to 20% of pregnancies), you aren't allowed to care about infant mortality either.

My sister had a miscarried baby, who was buried, has a name, a grave.. That has never happened, not once, in the case of an abortion.

 

[Just Think]

Haha! You’ve left a little bit of your AI response there pal Can you spot it?


This is where your AI tried to change the subject.

A ‘life-support system” ? - even for an AI response, that’s a pretty low bar way to describe a pregnant woman. Fuck me.

My point was precisely that miscarriage and abortion are not the same thing. A miscarriage is a natural death; an abortion is an intentional act.

You (your AI) haven't refuted that distinction; you've (they’ve) just tried to introduce a bodily autonomy argument.

And referring to pregnancy as being a "literal life-support system" is revealing even if it was concocted by AI, you read it and chose to leave it in there. Most people would describe pregnancy as a mother carrying her child, not as one human being reduced to a piece of medical equipment.

That's precisely why we can justifiably question the sincerity of your outrage. You pretend to speak emotionally about babies who died in Tuam, yet describe the natural relationship between a mother and her unborn child in entirely mechanistic terms. The inconsistency is obvious.

The fact that recognising is spelled with a z instead of an s is a real giveaway that AI was used formulating that answer.

 

[Haven]

Haha! You’ve left a little bit of your AI response there pal Can you spot it?


This is where your AI tried to change the subject.

A ‘life-support system” ? - even for an AI response, that’s a pretty low bar way to describe a pregnant woman. Fuck me.

My point was precisely that miscarriage and abortion are not the same thing. A miscarriage is a natural death; an abortion is an intentional act.

You (your AI) haven't refuted that distinction; you've (they’ve) just tried to introduce a bodily autonomy argument.

And referring to pregnancy as being a "literal life-support system" is revealing even if it was concocted by AI, you read it and chose to leave it in there. Most people would describe pregnancy as a mother carrying her child, not as one human being reduced to a piece of medical equipment.

That's precisely why we can justifiably question the sincerity of your outrage. You pretend to speak emotionally about babies who died in Tuam, yet describe the natural relationship between a mother and her unborn child in entirely mechanistic terms.

I’m glad that I brought it up. The inconsistency is obvious.

No, calling pregnancy a "life-support system" isn't cold, its biological reality. "Carrying a child" is a lovely sentiment for a wanted pregnancy, but forcing that physical toll on someone against their will changes the ethics of the situation completly.

There’s no contradiction here-the Tuam scandal was about the appalling neglect of born children, seperated from their mothers. Abortion access is about bodily autonomy.

 

[BIG FAT HOOR]

The story I heard was that Council workmen uncovered the remains when they starting building council houses. They respectfully gathered them up and built a ossuary for them. This is the supposed sewage chamber.

that fact is new to me and i have not followed this story closely as there are aspects to it which disturb me in the media handling of it ,
and i distance myself from opportunities of the left when they are visible .

 

[The Equalizer]

No, calling pregnancy a "life-support system" isn't cold

Why not?

its biological reality.

OIC

Do you think any other "biological reality" is "cold"?

And can you answer my question please, why do you think that "bodily autonomy" gives someone the right to kill another human being, other than in the case of self-defence?

 

[Haven]

Haha! You’ve left a little bit of your AI response there pal Can you spot it?

I put it in.

Google Search

Its simple to structure a response to look like AI.

People are increasingly baiting opponents into making the "Its AI!" claim, to show that the messenger is being attacked, not the message, that they are making a lazy excuse to dismiss a valid point they do not know how to refute.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/s/g7MojyMdpk

And it works!

 

[Haven]

Why not?


OIC

Do you think any other "biological reality" is "cold"?

And can you answer my question please, why do you think that "bodily autonomy" gives someone the right to kill another human being, other than in the case of self-defence?

No human being has the right to use another person's body to stay alive without their ongoing consent.

We apply this rule everywhere else. You cannot legally force someone to donate blood or a kidney to save a dying person.

Withdrawing bodily support from a fetus when it means protecting a womans own physical health and safety is, fundamentally, a form of self-defense.