An Open Letter to Atheists

Fishalt

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That is my argument.



It is natural for us to behave in the way described above in your own conduct. It is foolishness to act in bad faith and yet many are caught in this charade. Your own behaviour does have a reward - it is a fulfillment of your potential for caritas. Caritas is a key feature of salvation. Caritas is not driven by fear although a fear of God is healthy to possess as it cautions us against unholy acts. There is the awe of God too, something that is mixed up with the fear but relates more to enormity and breadth.

caritas

4. a kindly and lenient attitude towards people
5. love of one's fellow people



I have met Christians who were as close to it as I can know.

You raise Hindu concepts here - are you open to a reality beyond materialism? The Sadducees believed there was a God that the Jews were bound to serve but didn't believe in an afterlife - this is something like the Deists from what I can tell.

Here you posit an afterlife, a cycle of reincarnation. Rather than follow it as an active practice, does it provide guidance and sensemaking for you?



Well. given our commitment to fellowship, I won't tell you about the Great Tragedy I plan to write titled Jimbo, to be known to thespians as the Numpty Play. He's not improving, I've seen a dozen others like him - they don't come out of it, and you're only bleeding yourself with endless transfusions. He's one of those that only Jesus can save. By all means be courteous and just to him but keep a safe distance away from those slavering jaws. He went over the event horizon, a fate you escaped. He will only come out of it when he decides he has to. If you put your hand in to pull him out, he'll only pull you in. There are legions of them salted throughout the infrastructure now and it's becoming a nightmare to get anything done as a result. Wait till the adoption law changes sink in - it'll get much worse. They're making a factory to produce them.

God makes sense, that's why people believe in Him. I remember being told of a missionary pastor to Ireland that told a friend that a life without God is one of asinine fatuity. Got me some respect for those Dissenter types after that. An old priest, a learned and kindly man who lived a dedicated life, told me quietly once that some of them you just can't save. I've seen this wisdom IRL plenty of times since. Don't pretend to be the equal in wisdom to these two men - you aren't. Rather be careful and patient in your investments.

It may be that you just didn't have exposure to a regular decent community because good people weren't all that rare. There's still a few of them knocking about. That said - there have always been imposters that the vulnerable know the cruel truth about. The child abuse scandal destroyed Catholic Ireland - society was disgusted by it. Contrast it to our present times where the sexualisation of children is celebrated and ask yourself where the ground of good is found - in the current arrangement or the past one?



Moral freedom is the root of tragedy - the freedom to choose good or evil. Your condemnation is of the natural world. Do you reject that there is some standard to contrast an existence merely red in tooth and claw?

The concept of Samsara/Dhukka I subscribe to is Buddhist, not Hindu. Mahayana Buddhism, that is. Reincarnation in this system does not work the way you think it does, nor does karma, and neither require any belief in the supernatural. Suffice to say, it is possible to die and be born many times in a lifetime. The fundamental difference I suppose is that Christianity is predicated on the idea of permanence, and this is antithetical to Buddhist teaching--both Mahayana and Theravada. It is the concept of permanence and linearity--that things have beginnings and endings, that a causes attachment underwritten by the fear of death and loss, and it is this that causes suffering. One who cannot see the rising and falling of things,who cannot see past the illusion of time, who is mired in attachment and embroiled in dreams of the self, of being and not being, will never know wisdom. Nor peace. Those priests you mention likely did not possess wisdom. They may have been learned, they may have known all there is to know about Christian theology. But unless they understood that we must all come to an end here, and that nowhere, ever, has there been known a place where death did not overcome the mortal, then they learned the wrong lessons.

The natural world is objective reality. Natural processes are reality. What you conceive of is an imposition of a human value system upon reality. It is an artifice.
 
A

A Man Called Charolais

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The concept of Samsara/Dhukka I subscribe to is Buddhist, not Hindu. Mahayana Buddhism, that is. Reincarnation in this system does not work the way you think it does, nor does karma, and neither require any belief in the supernatural. Suffice to say, it is possible to die and be born many times in a lifetime. The fundamental difference I suppose is that Christianity is predicated on the idea of permanence, and this is antithetical to Buddhist teaching--both Mahayana and Theravada. It is the concept of permanence and linearity--that things have beginnings and endings, that a causes attachment underwritten by the fear of death and loss, and it is this that causes suffering. One who cannot see the rising and falling of things,who cannot see past the illusion of time, who is mired in attachment and embroiled in dreams of the self, of being and not being, will never know wisdom. Nor peace. Those priests you mention likely did not possess wisdom. They may have been learned, they may have known all there is to know about Christian theology. But unless they understood that we must all come to an end here, and that nowhere, ever, has there been known a place where death did not overcome the mortal, then they learned the wrong lessons.

The natural world is objective reality. Natural processes are reality. What you conceive of is an imposition of a human value system upon reality. It is an artifice.

You've clearly put a lot of thought into this. The civic space is secular because of disagreements like these, not because such questions aren't crucially important. If it wasn't ecumenical then there would be interminable strife. That it is discussed is firstly an effort to establish mutual codes of enforceable conduct and secondly to try and disarm religious persecution.

As for the agents of chaos in our midst, you've been told. Perhaps the scales will fall. I wouldn't have gone into it if I didn't think they might. It does draw a panicked ire from them when it is discussed. Why do you think they want to bring in censorship? Still, do try by all means but keep an eye out.
 
A

A Man Called Charolais

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Another appeal to authority. :rolleyes:

Remember, at the end of the day...

the dude your opinion GIF

Was watching Megyn Kelly discussing why Matt Drudge turned his site into The Nudge Report and it turns out it seems they bought him with a seat on the Ark.

But there's no seat on the Ark for him or you. You've both been done.
 

Tiger

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The hate-filled (70 IQ) bigots posting on this thread give normal religious people a bad name
People who describe themselves as agnostic tend to be pretty normal, however anyone who has a tendency to let the world know that they are an atheist at every chance they get, tend to be socially retarded cockwomble bores like you.

You’re a good advertisement for atheists in that regard.
 

Wolf

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People who describe themselves as agnostic tend to be pretty normal, however anyone who has a tendency to let the world know that they are an atheist at every chance they get, tend to be socially retarded cockwomble bores like you.

You’re a good advertisement for atheists in that regard.
One of their best.😂
 

Fishalt

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An 'agnostic' is an atheist, dipshit, just weak enough (by calling themselves that) for a 70 IQ religious bigot like you to be able to contain your rage (a very good reason for an atheist not to call themself an 'agnostic')
It's possible to be both James.

I might fall into that camp. I don't hold any religious beliefs, but I'm also not willing to completely discount the possibility of a prime mover. The best evidence for God is that there is order in the universe. There's actually no reason for this to be the case at all. I know you're going to go on a rant about how an atheist is just a non-theist and therefore by extension every agnostic is an atheist, but that's a very thin form of logic that is more than slightly autistic.
 

Fishalt

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As predicted, this thread has changed nobody's mind and has only resulted in enmity.
 

Fishalt

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What's annoying about you, when you're lying about me, is that you're fairly unaware of my thoughts on this subject.

Did you know that I had a fifteen round bout with my goof friend, Mrs. Hitler (@dropkickmejeebus) about Richard Dawkins being an agnostic? 🤔
Do you think that was a sensible and/or profitable investment of time?
 

Fishalt

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Of course it was. Winning is always worth it
This is what I've been trying to get through to you, James. You spend your time trying to conquer others to feed or otherwise appease your ego, and this achieves nothing. Nothing will increase as a result of this process other than your pride and vanity. Or bitterness and hatred.
 

Fishalt

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I've already told you that that's a lie.

Stop. Lying.
Is it though, James? Is it really?

What other motivation could you possibly have for endlessly engaging in these debates? Come now, be honest; none of this is coming from a place of virtue. I would level the same charge at Tiger and Plunkett FYI. It's all underwritten by hatred and the need to win, to humiliate. And what underwrites that is ego. The shadow.

Hatred will not cease by hatred at any time, people. This is a very, very old rule.
 

Fishalt

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Anyway Fishalt you reckon Intelligent Design is the proof that could impress you? Did you get a chance to read from p.36 on in this book maybe: http://www.orwellianireland.com/proofs.pdf ?
I don't believe in intelligent design. It's a pseudoscience.

Nobody who is interested in biology could believe in such a thing. This is a serious problem within the Christian community, IMO. Your side of the aisle has a very poor track record when it comes to ecology and the environment, and I suspect this is due to the fact that the Bible more or less instructs believers that they have dominion over the Earth and everything in it and can do to it or with whatever they please. It's been fairly disastrous for mother nature.
 

scolairebocht

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Thats a new one, I didn't know it was the Church's fault that the Dodo died out or whatever. Still you can add it to the list, certainly the establishment in this country for I would say half a century has blamed the Church for everything, so...
 

scolairebocht

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Fishalt: "The best evidence for God is that there is order in the universe. There's actually no reason for this to be the case at all."

I think you will find thats what the philosophers would call the Intelligent Design type argument? Although there would be other names for it I guess.
 

Declan

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Today I was in caves, cut into sandstone, over 35 million years, by the ocean.
I could see layers proving the sea level washundreds of feet higher other land was hundreds of feet lower.

Either way, it was awe inspiring.
 

scolairebocht

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Well I watched a couple of the videos you posted James and was going to reply to them but they just seemed very shallow. A few soundbites really that just weren't worth getting into.

Maybe if you roll up your sleeves and properly master the Aquinas 5 ways or something, then you would have all the philosophical background to take theists on, could that be a good plan?
 

scolairebocht

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I did watch a number of your videos but cannot remember the titles I am afraid, certainly Dawkins, I think on the Pat Kenny show, was on one.

Ok so you reject the existence of God but not based, by your admission, on any great knowledge of your subject? Certainly not one you intend studying or that but one you certainly will broadcast to the world and challenge people on?
 

scolairebocht

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If you read the aforementioned book you will see how much the great philosophers of the world tend to agree with those 5 ways. One of the ways does chime with the law of conservation of energy actually, as you will see if you study it.
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Let me rewrite this.

"Correct, which is why we have [insert key sacred document from your own religion here], which is the only way to find out who God is. You can easily determine via the 5 senses and common sense, the need for a Creator, but that's as far as it goes."
Revelation is an historic series of temporal, informational events, not a dogma. You're an idiot
 

PlunkettsGhost

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If you believe in Good and Evil = = Does that mean you believe in God ? !
There is no such thing as objective 'good' or 'evil' for the atheist . Any atheist promoting the reality of good or evil, as intrinsic truths, is a liar to his own belief system. Each individual atheist of course creates their own individual notions of what they believe to be 'good' or 'evil'

All subjective of course, and any atheist is free to dismiss another atheist's ideas related to good and evil. It is a sociologically chaotic world view
 

PlunkettsGhost

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I could literally have the same response from a Hindu about the Vedas.
Indeed, and that's where good ole common sense comes in. There is a world of difference related to the historicity between the vedas and the gospels . I recommend Fr John Hardon's books on comparative religion
 

scolairebocht

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Anyway since some don't seem to know how the laws of physics come into the proofs I hope I will be forgiven for posting this on one of the proofs, from www.orwellianireland.com/proofs.pdf .

I. Proof from Motion (sometimes called ‘change’), or the Kinetological Argument

The ancient Greeks actually thought that everything had, at least in some sense, motion or energy. How they knew that about such obvious non-candidates as a lump of rock is a mystery to this observer, but they did, and, furthermore, they were right! Clearly everything that exists has molecules with atoms who in turn have electrons spinning around inside etc, in short everything has motion and a type of energy. And everything seems to be the result of motion or energy. If you like you could take anything in front of you and try to put it into a long sequence of moved and movers, or things that accepted and then imparted energy. So you have an iron lamp in from of you, for example, and we can say that it is there as a result of the energy or motion you imparted in bringing it to that spot at some point. It is also the result of motion and energy that were imparted to it in the foundry and in the foundry it was made from an iron bar which in turn was worked on .i.e. had energy and motion imparted to it etc etc.

If you take an interest in physics you will realise that this exercise is simply using the ‘law of conservation of energy,’ i.e. the idea that the energy cannot be created out of nothing, energy derives from some source which gets it from some other source etc. So in this proof that is all you are doing, you move up along the sequence of something that was hit by the energy or motion of something else, and that something else got its energy or motion from something else etc etc.

Lets imagine that sequence and think about it for a while. Is it the case that this is a circular type of motion or energy chain? Or are you moving backwards in time to a discreet point, to some original source of this energy or motion? Could there be at some point back in time an original ‘first mover’, from which we get all this motion and energy originally, or is it, as I say, a circular type of motion? Well to answer this question it might help to go back to the original source of this proof.

St Thomas Aquinas when he drew up these proofs was influenced by the works of some of the great thinkers in philosophy and science, one of which was Aristotle, a famous Greek philosopher, who, in fact, could justifiably be called the greatest philosopher in history. Furthermore this idea of a first mover was indeed Aristotle’s, and it might be helpful to read at this point what Aristotle says about it:
“Motion, then, being eternal, the first movent [i.e. the thing that moves], if there is but one, will be eternal also: if there are more than one, there will be a plurality of such eternal movents. We ought, however, to suppose that there is one rather than many, and a finite rather than an infinite number. When the consequences of either assumption are the same, we should always assume that things are finite rather than infinite in number, since in things constituted by nature that which is finite and that which is better ought, if possible, to be present rather than the reverse: and here it is sufficient to assume only one movent, the first of unmoved things, which being eternal will be the principle of motion to everything else.
The following argument also makes it evident that the first movent must be something that is one and eternal. We have shown that there must always be motion. That being so, motion must also be continuous, because what is always is continuous, whereas what is merely in succession is not continuous. But further, if motion is continuous, it is one: and it is one only if the movent and the moved that constitute it are each of them one, since in the event of a thing’s being moved now by one thing and now by another the whole motion will not be continuous but successive.”
Aristotle in fact stated that there are a number of reasons why we say that there has to be an original discreet ‘first mover,’ and not that that the sequence of moved and movers can go on ad infinitum i.e. in a kind of circle of continuous motion, like some kind of perpetual movement machine.
a) The first point he makes is that if you had some kind of machine like that then the type of motion would have to be ‘continuous’ as opposed to ‘consecutive’ (and I am simplifying his categories here). Imagine if you had a machine like that, a continuous motion machine, that would maybe look like the cogs and dials of a watch which goes on nearly forever. You see such a machine has a particular type of motion, it is all the one motion, if you like, and it is continuing over a finite space of time. Think about it for a minute, in that machine the cog wheel hits each gear which in turn hits something else which, in a very exact way, returns the motion to the beginning and starts the sequence again.

But what Aristotle reasoned was that the motion that you actually see in the universe today is ‘consecutive motion.’ He gave the example of a torch relay – which we see now in the Olympics, copying the ancient Greeks – to explain this idea of ‘consecutive motion.’ Another modern example could be the player hitting the balls on a billiard table, he hits one ball which hits another etc. But notice what happens to the motion in this latter example. The motion starts powerful in the beginning with the striking of the first ball and then it kind of ‘dribbles out’ after hitting all the other balls, that’s what we mean by ‘consecutive’ as opposed to the earlier ‘continuous’ type.

Now look around you as you examine the mover sequence in the universe. Say you are walking through a field and you look at a rock, of igneous type we will say. So you use the rock in this sequence of movers: we know that the rock is there because it was moved, it got its motion and energy from, a volcanic eruption, and the volcano got its motion from various chemical reactions etc deep under the crust of the earth. But look what happened to this motion when it threw up this rock, doesn’t it look like a kind of scattered ‘dribbling out’ type of motion, like the billiard balls? You see the rock is just thrown onto the ground beside you and then does nothing with its motion, the same as the billiard balls coming to rest. If it was some type of continuous motion machine, like the cogs of a watch, then we would expect the rock to rest on some kind of lever which would be attached to some gear which would return the motion, so to speak, to the volcano so that it could start this motion over again. But it just isn’t like that, the motion in the universe is not of that type. It seems rather to be a type of motion that points to a discreet beginning, like an inverted tree structure with some original motion that is dissipating itself around us.

b) The second point he makes is that even if you constructed a perfect circular motion machine, or if the sequence of moved and movers went on literally to infinity, you still need an original source of motion. Imagine if you did make that machine, the perpetual motion machine, the problem would be that you would need to start it somehow! It would just sit there until someone actually began motion to begin it, you still need a first mover. And as regards a huge infinite series of moved and movers you face the same problem, at some point you need to actually ‘create motion’. No matter how long the sequence is it needs to have a beginning where somebody actually starts the motion off, the long sequence of moved and movers would be just like the billiard balls hitting into one another, that only happens because the player started the sequence off by giving motion via his arm.

So Aristotle concluded that the universe needed some original outside source of motion or energy, this sequence of moved and movers couldn’t continue ad infinitum. Hence he said there must be an original being out there from whom we get this ‘first movement’ in the sequence of motion or energy that you see around you in the universe. He thought there must be something out there, some ‘X’ being that started all this motion and energy. Aristotle, although obviously not a Christian, in fact came to the explicit conclusion that this original source of movement must be God.

Notice too that we are referring here, as we are to the ‘beings’ thrown up by the two subsequent proofs, to some entity that exists before the universe existed. If you like then, this X is out there when nothing else is out there, naturally enough because we are talking about something that starts the whole energy or motion sequence of the universe in the first place. Consequently it isn’t limited in the area it occupies, it expands into infinity. Various complicated deductions have been made then that this X is a spirit, rather than a body as such, which I think is pretty intuitive, but also that it would occupy, in a way, all space that we can imagine, since it cannot have been limited in the space it occupies before the universe was created. I appreciate that sounds very complicated but it is well established in philosophy that a being in that type of environment must occupy a space that we would call infinity, it is then an infinite being.

We will analyse these ‘beings’, or ‘X’s, at the end of the proofs but hopefully at this stage you can see that there must be a ‘being’ like that out there, or at least must have been one at the beginning of the universe, and that it would be infinite.
 

scolairebocht

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Aristotle wrote 8 famous books on physics, and then some on 'meta physics which brings us into theological territory.
 

scolairebocht

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Kangal
"There are pumpkins in the world.
For every pumpkin that we observe, there exists the possibility that there is another pumpkin bigger than it.
This cannot be true of every pumpkin, however, since that would lead to an infinite regression of pumpkins.
Therefore, there must be one pumpkin that is bigger than any other pumpkin could ever possibly be.
Everybody understands this to be the Great Pumpkin
Therefore the Great Pumpkin exists."


That is a garbled and sneered at version of what is known as the Ontological proof of God's Existence. Aquinas rejected that so it isn't part of his five 'ways'.

But of course you knew that, because you are all experts on the proofs, because obviously ye wouldn't be the kind of people who would sneer at Catholics without actually knowing of what you are talking about, of course not!
 

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