An Open Letter to Atheists

scolairebocht

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A Plea that they approach the question of God’s Existence in a scientific and rational manner.
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After a friendly discussion with atheists recently it struck me that many people of that opinion pride themselves on their scientific and level headed approach to the question of religion. They stand for logic, and mathematical scientific reasoning, none of the mumbo jumbo associated with religion.

I welcome that wholeheartedly, your brains are God given and I think they should be used a lot in deciding between theism and atheism, very much so, but is that actually what happens? Consider a few things that flow from this level headed approach:

a) Obviously you will have to put aside any question about the (vastly exaggerated, and some completely hoaxed) scandals involving the Catholic Church in Ireland, that can have nothing now to do with your cold hard logic sense of reason here? If 10,000 geography teachers were imprisoned in the morning for whatever, it still does not follow that the Shannon isn’t a river in Ireland or Malawi a country in Africa. You are clearly going to be putting all this hype to one side as you consider the philosophical question of the existence of God, and, in truth, is that what you actually do?

b) You can have no sense of fashion here, or your own presumptions about what is likely to grow or decline in the future. You are not in the market for a handbag at this point, it should have no impact on you any sense in which older people might have been more religious in the past, and that the Churches are now not as full, and you would prefer to be with the younger hipper in-crowd, etc! If you are now this logical sort of fellow all that is not interfering with your decision here, right?

c) No sense of pride or a feeling that religion is a kill joy is impacting your new logical scientific self, is it? None of us like to be told what to do, and for example if one borrows a huge sum of money for a great new car, we don’t like people reminding us that we have to pay all that money back? Its a kill joy sure, but its also saying the hard truth, and thats what religion sometimes has to do, but of course you aren’t thinking of anything like that when deciding if God exists or not? There is no sense in which you would like to continue your lifestyle free of ‘judgementalism’ coming into your logic here is there, because obviously that would be very far from a logical and scientific approach to this question wouldn’t it?

d) Do you have the level of knowledge to decide this question? Obviously if I was to decide if I believe a physicist when he says they can explode a giant bomb by crushing two tiny atoms together, I need some knowledge of physics to know if he is lying or not. Logically, its not just about your own intelligence, clearly its that added to education in the subject which will give you, hopefully, the right answer.

But what is your level of knowledge of theology, or even of specifically the philosophical Proofs of God’s Existence as outlined by Aquinas say? I hear so many atheists proudly saying that at the age of 7 they knew it was all bunkum etc etc, imagine if you said that to the physicist in that question above? At the age of 7 how much knowledge could you reasonably have of theology or its related disciplines of logic and philosophy? Have you studied it all properly as an adult, reading a few selective quotes by people like Dawkins does not make you a theology expert, or give you anything like enough education here to be able to decide this question. Anyway if you like you can read something like this text which might help you at least to know the main theist arguments: http://www.orwellianireland.com/proofs.pdf .

In any case just a few thoughts on the subject...
 
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scolairebocht

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I am afraid you lost me somewhere along there, you can question whatever you like? Its up to you to believe or not to believe?
 

Tiger

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Nine-nil in the chess folks!

I'm sure you all will be very happy to hear that.

So I come back to the thread and there's still no word from @scolaireboredom

But I'm the bad guy, right?

I can already hear the chorus of execration. How dare I say such a horrible thing? How dare I stir up trouble and inflame feelings?

Yet who was this "open letter" to atheists addressed to, here, on Sarsfield's?

Well, I can only believe that it is as the man once said -


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkpes3dgzg

I imagine you have some hangover today James.

It’s just as well that you don’t have a job.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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Obviously you will have to put aside any question about the (vastly exaggerated, and some completely hoaxed) scandals involving the Catholic Church in Ireland,
There was nothing exaggerated about it. Thousands of kids arseholes (including a retard in Helsinki) will attest to that.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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I hear so many atheists proudly saying that at the age of 7 they knew it was all bunkum etc etc, imagine if you said that to the physicist in that question above?
I think when people say that they mean specifically religion and its mad stories about virgin births etc as opposed to there being some kind of Creator.
 

scolairebocht

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Myles, on exaggerations about priest paedophiles
No it is definitely vastly exaggerated. If you follow the Tuam story for example you will find huge numbers of people who believe that children were tortured and murdered etc etc there, all total nonsense. Even in the gigantically hyped government reports on paedophile priests they threw in every sexual allegation - not conviction, and including among consenting adults - ever made against a priest in Ireland and it doesn't look all that impressive a list when set against the large number of priests in Ireland at the time.

Its true that Fr Brendan Smith in Kilnacrott, for example, really existed, and did what was attributed to him, and you would get one or two genuinely paedophile priests in most of the large dioceses in Ireland, but over the length of time and the number of priests in Ireland over that period, I would say you would get a far worse percentage among teachers or taxi drivers etc.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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Tell that to a guy like Mowl who hasn't been able to sit on a hard surface since he was 13.
 

Coal Gas and peat

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The open letter could also have been aimed at the sites pagan community
 

scolairebocht

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I suspect the pagan community will grow because it will morph into the Occult world, who are the real power in the land, internationally anyway.
 

Hermit

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A Plea that they approach the question of God’s Existence in a scientific and rational manner.
View attachment 4139

After a friendly discussion with atheists recently it struck me that many people of that opinion pride themselves on their scientific and level headed approach to the question of religion. They stand for logic, and mathematical scientific reasoning, none of the mumbo jumbo associated with religion.

I welcome that wholeheartedly, your brains are God given and I think they should be used a lot in deciding between theism and atheism, very much so, but is that actually what happens? Consider a few things that flow from this level headed approach:

a) Obviously you will have to put aside any question about the (vastly exaggerated, and some completely hoaxed) scandals involving the Catholic Church in Ireland, that can have nothing now to do with your cold hard logic sense of reason here? If 10,000 geography teachers were imprisoned in the morning for whatever, it still does not follow that the Shannon isn’t a river in Ireland or Malawi a country in Africa. You are clearly going to be putting all this hype to one side as you consider the philosophical question of the existence of God, and, in truth, is that what you actually do?

b) You can have no sense of fashion here, or your own presumptions about what is likely to grow or decline in the future. You are not in the market for a handbag at this point, it should have no impact on you any sense in which older people might have been more religious in the past, and that the Churches are now not as full, and you would prefer to be with the younger hipper in-crowd, etc! If you are now this logical sort of fellow all that is not interfering with your decision here, right?

c) No sense of pride or a feeling that religion is a kill joy is impacting your new logical scientific self, is it? None of us like to be told what to do, and for example if one borrows a huge sum of money for a great new car, we don’t like people reminding us that we have to pay all that money back? Its a kill joy sure, but its also saying the hard truth, and thats what religion sometimes has to do, but of course you aren’t thinking of anything like that when deciding if God exists or not? There is no sense in which you would like to continue your lifestyle free of ‘judgementalism’ coming into your logic here is there, because obviously that would be very far from a logical and scientific approach to this question wouldn’t it?

d) Do you have the level of knowledge to decide this question? Obviously if I was to decide if I believe a physicist when he says they can explode a giant bomb by crushing two tiny atoms together, I need some knowledge of physics to know if he is lying or not. Logically, its not just about your own intelligence, clearly its that added to education in the subject which will give you, hopefully, the right answer.

But what is your level of knowledge of theology, or even of specifically the philosophical Proofs of God’s Existence as outlined by Aquinas say? I hear so many atheists proudly saying that at the age of 7 they knew it was all bunkum etc etc, imagine if you said that to the physicist in that question above? At the age of 7 how much knowledge could you reasonably have of theology or its related disciplines of logic and philosophy? Have you studied it all properly as an adult, reading a few selective quotes by people like Dawkins does not make you a theology expert, or give you anything like enough education here to be able to decide this question. Anyway if you like you can read something like this text which might help you at least to know the main theist arguments: http://www.orwellianireland.com/proofs.pdf .

In any case just a few thoughts on the subject...
The "does God exist?" debate needs to differentiate between a Creator from the Christian God. I know there is a Creator, but I don't know if it is like the God of the bible. Myles touched on it, theists don't believe in the Christian God (the character/personality) because of all the crazy stuff (as they see it) in the bible.

I wish we were taught the logical arguments for God in school - unfortunately all we learned was stories, prayers and lyrics. Even more importantly I wish we taught logical reasoning.

On another note, you might be interested in reading these scientific proofs of the Creator.
 

scolairebocht

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Yes its true that its another discussion, believing in God (a 'creator' being in practice just a different name for the same being?) is different from accepting all that Catholic theology gives you on the question, but still some don't make that first step and if I can persuade them of that at least its something!
 

Hermit

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No further questions
When you use a logical fallacy, your argument is invalid.

The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue)[1] is a fallacy of irrelevance in which arguments or information are dismissed or validated based solely on their source of origin rather than their content. In other words, a claim is ignored or given credibility based on its source rather than the claim itself.
 

scolairebocht

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There was actually a book written by an Australian Jesuit in I think the 1940s where he was writing about "if you accept there is a God then it is the Christian God" because of x, y and z. He started from the premise that you believe in God first and then went through his long arguments after that point, it was pretty complicated and unfortunately I have forgotten most of it!
 

scolairebocht

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David has been banned
"he's a christian" No further questions

You don't consider yourself prejudiced against Christians by any chance? That wouldn't be very logical or scientific or open minded either?
 

clarke-connolly

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Myles, on exaggerations about priest paedophiles
No it is definitely vastly exaggerated. If you follow the Tuam story for example you will find huge numbers of people who believe that children were tortured and murdered etc etc there, all total nonsense. Even in the gigantically hyped government reports on paedophile priests they threw in every sexual allegation - not conviction, and including among consenting adults - ever made against a priest in Ireland and it doesn't look all that impressive a list when set against the large number of priests in Ireland at the time.

Its true that Fr Brendan Smith in Kilnacrott, for example, really existed, and did what was attributed to him, and you would get one or two genuinely paedophile priests in most of the large dioceses in Ireland, but over the length of time and the number of priests in Ireland over that period, I would say you would get a far worse percentage among teachers or taxi drivers etc.
As I was reading this ~ ~ I was going to mention teachers ( Lay Teachers ) ~ ~ Then I saw that you did.

Yes ~ ~ There would certainly be many Paedophile Teachers ( Ok, some of them clergy )
 

AUL LAD

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A Plea that they approach the question of God’s Existence in a scientific and rational manner.
View attachment 4139

After a friendly discussion with atheists recently it struck me that many people of that opinion pride themselves on their scientific and level headed approach to the question of religion. They stand for logic, and mathematical scientific reasoning, none of the mumbo jumbo associated with religion.

I welcome that wholeheartedly, your brains are God given and I think they should be used a lot in deciding between theism and atheism, very much so, but is that actually what happens? Consider a few things that flow from this level headed approach:

a) Obviously you will have to put aside any question about the (vastly exaggerated, and some completely hoaxed) scandals involving the Catholic Church in Ireland, that can have nothing now to do with your cold hard logic sense of reason here? If 10,000 geography teachers were imprisoned in the morning for whatever, it still does not follow that the Shannon isn’t a river in Ireland or Malawi a country in Africa. You are clearly going to be putting all this hype to one side as you consider the philosophical question of the existence of God, and, in truth, is that what you actually do?

b) You can have no sense of fashion here, or your own presumptions about what is likely to grow or decline in the future. You are not in the market for a handbag at this point, it should have no impact on you any sense in which older people might have been more religious in the past, and that the Churches are now not as full, and you would prefer to be with the younger hipper in-crowd, etc! If you are now this logical sort of fellow all that is not interfering with your decision here, right?

c) No sense of pride or a feeling that religion is a kill joy is impacting your new logical scientific self, is it? None of us like to be told what to do, and for example if one borrows a huge sum of money for a great new car, we don’t like people reminding us that we have to pay all that money back? Its a kill joy sure, but its also saying the hard truth, and thats what religion sometimes has to do, but of course you aren’t thinking of anything like that when deciding if God exists or not? There is no sense in which you would like to continue your lifestyle free of ‘judgementalism’ coming into your logic here is there, because obviously that would be very far from a logical and scientific approach to this question wouldn’t it?

d) Do you have the level of knowledge to decide this question? Obviously if I was to decide if I believe a physicist when he says they can explode a giant bomb by crushing two tiny atoms together, I need some knowledge of physics to know if he is lying or not. Logically, its not just about your own intelligence, clearly its that added to education in the subject which will give you, hopefully, the right answer.

But what is your level of knowledge of theology, or even of specifically the philosophical Proofs of God’s Existence as outlined by Aquinas say? I hear so many atheists proudly saying that at the age of 7 they knew it was all bunkum etc etc, imagine if you said that to the physicist in that question above? At the age of 7 how much knowledge could you reasonably have of theology or its related disciplines of logic and philosophy? Have you studied it all properly as an adult, reading a few selective quotes by people like Dawkins does not make you a theology expert, or give you anything like enough education here to be able to decide this question. Anyway if you like you can read something like this text which might help you at least to know the main theist arguments: http://www.orwellianireland.com/proofs.pdf .

In any case just a few thoughts on the subject...
God exists --what God is i can only suspect -- i am limited in my intellectual capacity to know God or to form a solid view of what God is.
i know i agree with Christs teaching that God is within me .
i now know for sure that each and every person on earth including atheists and all others including those without limbs and those who are unconscious and starving -- those who are emperors and presidents have precisely the same quantity of god each .
nobody has an ounce more or an ounce less of God within .
this is not stated because i have religious convictions --religion has nothing to do with my belief in god .
i have explored this question possibly more than most and i studied religions ,
then i formally studied the Bhagavad Gita which is the Hindu bible which i discovered was the only barely accessible route for me and my limited intellect to take to get an understanding of god .
i followed the road traveled before me by many and i even went to India to explore further ,
have to pay special mention of WB Yeats who gave up 2 years of his life for humanity and published his TEN PRINCIPAL UPANISHADS translated with the help of a Sanscrit scholar called Shree Pruihot Swami ,
i found the text at times impossible to follow and you require a teacher to help you which i was lucky i did have .
the Upanishads are for me not a religious pursuit --
they are the only texts i know of which explore the relationship between me and god and between god and us --
- and allow anyone even I --- I am from a humble background educationally to try and come to grips with god .
the Hindus have as their core belief that the greatest reward you can have is ever increasing KNOWLEDGE of god ,
this is heaven and as time passes the knowledge of god increases and you BECOME AS ONE WITH GOD .
this beautiful aim and ambition full of goodness ----was hijacked by some of those who called themselves Christians and the fruit of the tree of knowledge was used for evil intent including the subjugation of Eve /all women.
in the Hindi tradition you can read in WB Yeats poem wandering Angus that on mount Meru in their garden of Eden ""YOU CAN PLUCK TILL TIME,S AND TIME'S ARE DONE THE SILVER APPLES OF THE MOON THE GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN "" .
no fee charged on entry of any kind -----all are welcome .
no garden snake ---the chosen one by god------ to be the evil assistant to god .
in a totally ungodly move he then goes on to punish anyone who would acquire knowledge in the perfect garden even those seduced by his evil assistant- the greatest crime and the stated original sin therefore is the acquiring of knowledge.
this move is totally inexplicable on a thousand levels and should have condemned this movement to the sewer of history but no here we are .
 
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scolairebocht

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Thats certainly interesting Aul Lad, and you certainly have thought about this, but do you feel that sometimes Irish people go all over the world reading and studying various religions, before they made any great effort to study the Catholic one? You have mysticism there, Marian Apparitions, anchorites cells and hermitages etc all around Ireland, but I find many Irish people uninterested in it whereas they would go anywhere to see a Buddhist temple etc?
 

AUL LAD

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Thats certainly interesting Aul Lad, and you certainly have thought about this, but do you feel that sometimes Irish people go all over the world reading and studying various religions, before they made any great effort to study the Catholic one? You have mysticism there, Marian Apparitions, anchorites cells and hermitages etc all around Ireland, but I find many Irish people uninterested in it whereas they would go anywhere to see a Buddhist temple etc?
Any one who makes the effort is ostracized in this country as the study of god within ---- dilutes the established churches teaching to nothing .
if you take the Jesuit priest John o Donahue who wrote Anam Cara -- Eternal Echoes --- Divine Beauty --Benedictus .
The church turned on him and said this is not church teaching --and he a jesuit priest --what hope does a poor dummy like me have.
you have to reject what you find is anti christian and anti god and yes yes yes you have to make the journey -- You must be always curious and to quote Ts Eliot .
WE SHALL NOT CEASE FROM EXPLORATION
AND AT THE END OF OUR EXPLORING
WILL BE TO ARRIVE WHERE WE STARTED
AND KNOW THE PLACE FOR THE FIRST TIME.
that covers it fairly well for me .
 

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