An Open Letter to Atheists

PlunkettsGhost

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Kangal
"There are pumpkins in the world.
For every pumpkin that we observe, there exists the possibility that there is another pumpkin bigger than it.
This cannot be true of every pumpkin, however, since that would lead to an infinite regression of pumpkins.
Therefore, there must be one pumpkin that is bigger than any other pumpkin could ever possibly be.
Everybody understands this to be the Great Pumpkin
Therefore the Great Pumpkin exists."


That is a garbled and sneered at version of what is known as the Ontological proof of God's Existence. Aquinas rejected that so it isn't part of his five 'ways'.

But of course you knew that, because you are all experts on the proofs, because obviously ye wouldn't be the kind of people who would sneer at Catholics without actually knowing of what you are talking about, of course not!
Your wasting your time with Kangal and Dawson. Both are hyper classic examples of what is called - The Gamma male, as described under the rules of SSH - socio sexual hierarchy . You can't change the mind of a gamma. The levels of dissonance and delusion are pathological in nature
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Dawson and Kangal are secret Kings, ruling over an empire of nonsense. Does anyone have a single example of them admitting they were wrong on any issue?
 

Wolf

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Cool thread.
Keeps the pair of psychotic weirdos who spend their time whinging about me to the moderators together and busy.
Although something tells me these pair are the same screwball, wouldn't be the first time we seen that here.
Great stuff. (y)
 

Wolf

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^^^^^
This chap isn't well.
Having multiple accounts banned from multiple threads must be a new record for Jimbo/Wank the 'tard.

Spends his whole life roaring and shouting at multiple different posters on multiple different political websites and truly believes he's making a difference to the world.

Multiple!!!:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Wolf

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Your wasting your time with Kangal and Dawson. Both are hyper classic examples of what is called - The Gamma male, as described under the rules of SSH - socio sexual hierarchy . You can't change the mind of a gamma. The levels of dissonance and delusion are pathological in nature
To be fair, he's mentally ill so his carer just allows him spend his waking hours running around after us on sites like this to keep him busy.
It's cheaper and easier than sedation.
 

AUL LAD

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I don't believe I've ever seen any "proof" for a god that doesn't come across as contrived or designed to get the answer it wants. And ideas like "first mover" for example, could easily be described as some natural entity, conditions or force(s) that have yet to be conclusively confirmed (though there are a great many ideas on this topic).

Certainly there's no objective evidence for a god....ultimately you end up being told to accept certain things as a "mystery", or just to have faith.
what you say is interesting as is fishalts comments.
to reply ----.
i am god -- you are god -- god is within you to the very same extent he is in me .
he is precisely in the same amount within the most fervent atheist you or i will ever meet.
i met god once for about 40 seconds --
he was me i discovered later when i found out i did not go mad.
and this experience is common worldwide as children attain adulthood where like me they spend their lives trying to experience that 40 seconds again .
god is our consciousness which is within as Christ said but the church does not fully agree/support GOD IS WITHIN YOU ==Jesus Christ .
his teachings have been hijacked by every crook and chancer imaginable including and especially the catholic church and many other organized religions .
the same truth is in the 10 principle Upanishads translated by WB Yeats and Shree Pruehout Swami -- these texts are said by some to be in excess of 18,000 years old and their source or author is unknown .
when accepting his Nobel prize WB said "" i have fed off the Upanishads all my life "".
don't doubt the wonder of god and it is a private thing and the greatest reward is increased knowledge of god -- nothing else --that is as good as it gets there are no other riches in the garden of Eden .
in our tradition evil chancers took the garden of Eden containing the tree of knowledge which is mankind's greatest prize and turned it into a garden of evil where gods evil assistant seduced Eve who in turn seduced Adam to fling us all from divinity and the forever enjoyment of Eden to earth where we experience much pain and are now mortal for a brief moment .
this is referred to as original sin and when you explore this you find its technical name which is unbelievably ""HEREDITARY DEPRAVITY "" no less .
and you also find we have a propensity to sin also .
if the bastards left us alone we would be fine --but the world is a very evil place .
 

scolairebocht

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Anyway by popular demand [not!], I thought I might post about one of the other proofs, or 'ways' of Aquinas:

"V. Proof from Final Causes, or the Teleological Argument, often known as Intelligent Design

Not a few of the highly respected philosophers and scientists of history and the present day felt, and feel, that the world as we know it, nature as it were, shows signs of a strange order or purposefulness, as opposed to randomness or pure chance, and this, it is felt, proves the existence of some being responsible for arranging this order. Predictably enough (!) I will try to explain this using an analogy but, mercifully, I will spare you any reference to watches or clocks! It is in fact one of the most peculiar aspects of the historiography of this question that virtually all the great thinkers start talking about watches and clocks when seeking to explain this proof. It really is very remarkable, it starts all the way from Cicero, and he was only talking about sundials!, to Robert Boyle, who talked about the Strasbourg town clock, to Voltaire, to William Paley – a Church of England rector who wrote one of the most influential books in history on this subject: ‘Natural Theology,’ published in 1802 – who famously talked about a watch found on a heath etc etc. Instead, by way of something different, I will begin with our hero marooned on a romantic desert island, trudging through the forest on his lonely atoll and suddenly coming across a trap, an elaborate Indiana-Jones-type large animal trap:

Naturally you move to examine it and find that it has a rope net which is designed to capture any large animal that falls into the corresponding hole that the trap maker has dug. The hole is just a large rectangular job and the rope, which is wide and sturdy, is just made from slashing together vines that abound in this forest. Of course you look at this trap and you immediately say “there is somebody out there, we are not alone!”, and no, you are not referring to aliens! This then is the basic idea of this proof, we see the same type of organised purposeful design in nature and we conclude that we are not alone, there must be a designer behind this design.

To get back to our Robinson Crusoe hero here, obviously he reached the natural conclusion anybody would reach having seen that elaborately designed trap. But why, exactly? How do you know there is somebody else on the island now that you have seen this trap? There are other holes in the forest of course, made randomly around the place by rabbits and other animals and by trees falling over etc, maybe the hole you were looking at arose that way? Sometimes the vines that you see hanging down from the trees intertwine a bit, so is that how the rope was made? We will say that you pause and consider this question, was this trap created by random forces like rabbits and the wind creating the rope by winding the vines together like that? And therefore there might not be anybody out there, it could be just natural forces and not the result of an intelligent designer, because what you had thought at first was that there must be some intelligent resourceful guy on this island, seeing as somebody like that had to have built such a crafty trap. But could it have come about then by these natural sources? Well, as you think about it, indeed the parts used in the trap were all natural, they were all around each other in the forest, so yes in theory the wind and rabbits etc could have created the trap.

But no, now that you give it more thought it couldn’t have happened like that because the trap was too structured or ordered. For example you are looking at the hole and you see it has four pretty sharp sides, as in a rectangle, and how could you have rabbits creating a large perfect rectangular hole like that? In theory they could have of course, you could have ten rabbits lined up together who start digging in unison etc etc, I mean it could happen, in theory? There is no law states that rabbits cannot form a line? But in reality we know that didn’t happen, and the reason is that we know that things cannot form that ordered or structured pattern by chance or randomness alone. What you could do is calculate the odds in your mind. You could picture the day you watched a few rabbits eating in a field and you could guess the odds of two rabbits lined up in perfect unison and then calculate the odds of 10 rabbits lined up like that. As you calculate the odds you rapidly realise that it just couldn’t happen and what you are doing in your head is the classic, and indeed only, way of distinguishing the two states of randomness and design. Basically you have design, i.e. somebody, a human or some being with intelligence, deliberately bringing about this state, taking over from randomness and chance, i.e. the outcome of natural undirected forces in nature, like wind or rain or something, as the only possible explanation when you find these huge odds stacking up, like the odds of rabbits coming together like that. Remember you never find that there is zero odds, there is always some chance that ten rabbits could line up in unison like that, because as I said there is no law against it, but when the odds start to get astronomical then you know it was design.

I will come back to that question of probabilities in a minute but lets look at some other aspects of the trap. You see you also have to consider that the wind would have to have arranged the vines in a rope or net structure at just the right time and place to coincide with the hole, and what are the odds of that? The point then is that when we see a kind of purposeful interlocking structure – I say purposeful because obviously the designer had put the hole in front of the net like that ‘on purpose,’ and you can note with interest that purposefulness – then the probabilities of it happening by chance, again, rise astronomically.

The other thing to remark on about the trap is that it doesn’t have to be perfect to show intelligent design. Say for the sake of argument that in one corner of the rectangular hole there is a small collapse in the earthwork. Hence it isn’t actually a perfect rectangular chasm, but still we can see that enough of the design of the whole remains that will show us that it couldn’t have come about by chance. So, in short, even though it isn’t actually a perfect rectangle nonetheless its close enough to rule out the rabbit theory. This is an important point because when we come to talking about DNA etc in a minute you will hear some people say that the intelligent design in nature is actually not perfectly designed – because after all we have cancer cells that use the DNA structure for example – to support life, but I would say it doesn’t have to be, as long as enough of it remains that does show the design.

In any case hopefully at this stage you get the general idea, the way to distinguish design from chance, that is two competing possibilities if you like, opposed to one another, is to check the probabilities. If the probabilities become astronomically high – but they never hit zero remember, when we are trying to distinguish randomness from design – then it is design, and that is what our hero did instinctively when he first saw the trap, he knew that some intelligent being had to have designed it.

You see this is what any intelligent person does on an ongoing basis. Say you were playing cards and your opponent got three aces dealt into him. Well it happens and you will congratulate him on his luck. Then it happens again on the next hand. That is certainly a talking point and everybody will be remarking on how lucky the guy was but I guess these things happen. But by the time it happens on the third hand you are going to react differently. Now you know it isn’t luck and you will be quietly fixing an eagle eye on your opponent’s sleeve! So what is happening here? You are calculating the odds of it happening by chance in your head. It could happen once, sure, happen twice, yes but very rare, but happen three times in a row? Now you have calculated that last probability in your head and you can see that those odds are ridiculous and you move to the design option, you know somebody has done that deliberately, you know that because the odds of it happening by chance have become astronomical. Remember the odds of it happening three times in a row are not zero, they never are under this type of analysis, but once they hit very big numbers then you know it is design – your opponent somehow did this deliberately, purposefully – and not by chance – it was not the mere random shuffling of the cards.



 

scolairebocht

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Another scenario could be if you were walking along a street and you seemed to feel that the person behind you is walking in step with you, as if you are being followed. So you look at him and scratch you head and think probably not, how can I be sure anyway?, but you note his face just in case. Then twenty minutes later you have walked to a different part of the city and look behind you and lo and behold, there he is again! Its a bit of a concern now, how could he be here just behind me now? Was he walking around the city randomly like me and he just happened to walk into this street, having earlier being beside me on the other street? What are the odds of that happening by chance? As you consider it though you might feel that it is just possible. These are two large streets with lots of people on them, maybe he is just going to the same shops you are? Now you walk through a huge thoroughfare with thousands of people jostling around each other as they go to work maybe, and you peel off into some insignificant side street where you know hardly anybody goes and look behind you and there he is again! So again, an intelligent person will now calculate the odds of this person being in the same three streets at the same time you were, and you will conclude that because the odds are too high then it had to be deliberate, it has to be ‘by design’ that he is following you.

So hopefully you begin to get the general picture here, once the odds start getting astronomical then you lift the possibility out of the realm of chance, or luck or randomness or undirected natural causes, and into the realm of design, or order or purposefulness. In fact right from the beginning this was held to be one of the great advantages of the science of probability, it was seen as a great new tool to help people identify the difference between design and chance. Here, for example, is a quote from the introduction to only the second book ever published on probability, ‘The Doctrine of Chances’ by Abraham de Moivre, a French Huguenot writing in early 18th century London:
“Further, the same Arguments which explode the Notion of Luck, may on the other side, be useful in some Cases to establish a due comparison between Chance and Design: We may imagine Chance and Design to be, as it were, in Competition with each other, for the production of some sorts of Events, and may calculate what Probability there is, that those Events should be rather owing to one than to the other. To give a Familiar Instance of this. Let us suppose that two Packs of Piquet-Cards being sent for, it should be perceived that there is, from Top to Bottom, the same Disposition of the Cards in both Packs; let us likewise suppose that, some doubt arising about this Disposition of the Cards, it should be questioned whether it ought to be attributed to Chance, or to the Maker’s Design: In this Case the Doctrine of Combinations decides the question; since it may be proved by its Rules, that there are the Odds of above 263 130830000 Millions of Millions of Millions of Millions to One, that the Cards were designedly set in the Order in which they were found.
From this last Consideration we may learn, in ma[n]y Cases, how to distinguish the Events which are the effects of Chance, from those which are produced by Design: The very Doctrine that finds Chance where it really is, being able to prove by a gradual Increase of Probability, till it arrive at Demonstration, that where Uniformity, Order and Constancy reside, there also reside Choice and Design.”

Why dwell so much on the theory of probability, I hear you ask? What has that got to do with the existence of God anyway? Because this actually is the great battle ground between theists and atheists over this question of intelligent design. In practice its accepted by all, or nearly all, that there are indeed aspects of nature and the universe which do show events, or ‘laws’, that have huge improbabilities against saying that they happened, or exist, as a blind result of randomness or chance. In these instances many atheists continue to say that they came about by undirected natural forces whereas theists are saying that they must be the result of design, because of the huge probabilities against these being caused by chance. Theists talk about three areas in particular:
a) Various constants – i.e. precise mathematical figures that are revealed by physics – that have to be very exact to allow life to exist at all on earth. Meaning that if there was the slightest difference in figures like the cosmological constant then we wouldn’t be alive here on earth at all, and what are the odds of those figures magically arising so exactly like this by accident? Because there is this huge improbability that those figures could have arisen just by chance, then, just like in the examples given above, does it not mean that earth was ‘designed’ so that life could happen here on earth? So we have some ‘designer’ for earth and who could that be if not God? This is sometimes known as the Fine Tuned Universe Argument – i.e. fine tuned to a precise point to allow life to exist – for God’s existence and in fact is becoming increasingly popular as these strange constants keep getting discovered.
b) The Laws of Physics, are called ‘laws’ because they show a precise order and structure to the universe, but again if we are into order and structure then we have to ask are we not in the ‘design,’ as opposed to ‘chance,’ bracket? Then if so, the natural question that follows is who designed them? 32 Even Euclid (c.325 BC -c.265 BC), the great Greek mathematician who lived a lot of his life in Alexandria, and is the ‘father of geometry’, said that “The laws of nature are but the mathematical thoughts of God.”
c) But DNA, and lifeforms themselves, form the really great battleground in this argument between atheists and theists. This is because it has been shown that life, and in particular the structure of DNA and the cell, is built on enormously complex structures which, it is felt, couldn’t possibly have arisen by chance. To give you a flavour of these odds here is a quote on the state of our knowledge of these probabilities:
“In the last 30 years a number of prominent scientists have attempted to calculate the odds that a free-living, single-celled organism, such as a bacterium, might result by the chance combining of pre-existent building blocks. Harold Morowitz calculated the odds as one chance in 10 to the power of 100,000,000,000. Sir Fred Hoyle calculated the odds of only the proteins of an amoebae arising by chance as one chance in 10 to the power of 40,000.
...the odds calculated by Morowitz and Hoyle are staggering. The odds led Fred Hoyle to state that the probability of spontaneous generation ‘is about the same as the probability that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard could assemble a Boeing 747 from the contents therein.’
Mathematicians tell us that any event with an improbability greater than one chance in 10 to the power of 50 is in the realm of metaphysics – i.e. a miracle.”
The aforementioned Professor Harold Morowitz (1927- ), a PhD from Yale in 1951, Professor of Biophysics at Yale 1960-86 and Director of the Krasnow Institute (1993- ), wrote:
“The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism
known is 1 to 10-340,000,000. This number is 1 to 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering, since there is only supposed to be approximately 10-80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!”
These odds were also calculated by Sir Francis Crick (1916-2004), Nobel Laureate in 1962, and of course the joint discoverer of the double helix form of the DNA molecule:
“To produce this miracle of molecular construction all the cell need do is to string together the amino acids (which make up the polypeptide chain) in the correct order. This is a complicated biochemical process, a molecular assembly line, using instructions in the form of a nucleic acid tape (the so-called messenger RNA) ...Here we need only ask, how many possible proteins are there? If a particular amino acid sequence was selected by chance, how rare an event would that be?
This is an easy exercise in combinatorials. Suppose the chain is about two hundred amino acids long; that is, if anything, rather less than the average length of proteins of all types. Since we have just twenty possibilities at each place, the number of possibilities is twenty multiplied by itself some two hundred times. This is conveniently written 20 [to the power of] 200 and is approximately equal to 10 [to the power of] 260, that is, a one followed by 260 zeros! This number is quite beyond our everyday comprehension. For comparison, consider the number of fundamental particles (atoms, speaking loosely) in the entire visible universe, not just in our own galaxy with its 10 [to the power of] 11 stars, but in all the billions of galaxies, out to the limits of observable space. This number, which is estimated to be 10 [to the power of] 80, is quite paltry by comparison to 10 [to the power of] 260.
Moreover we have only considered a polypeptide chain of a rather modest length. Had we considered longer ones as well, the figure would have been even more immense. It is possible to show that ever since life started on earth, the number of different polypeptide chains which could have been synthesized during all this long time is only a minute fraction of the number of imaginable ones. The great majority of sequences can never have been synthesized at all, at any time.”
 

scolairebocht

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So I invite you then to slot those figures into your new found insight into how probabilities work in helping us to distinguish between chance as opposed to design. We are just like that card player when he sees the three aces arise in the three consecutive hands. We can now solidly rule out chance, luck, randomness, accident, etc, in the creation of DNA, now that we see the very high probabilities, exactly as the card player did. Hence the DNA was created deliberately by some being, we know it couldn’t have arisen by luck or randomly or by accident, we have lifted this event out of the realm of chance or randomness or undirected natural forces and slotted it comfortably into the bracket of design and purpose etc. And that’s basically then the theory of Intelligent Design, we can see the hand of some designer at work in the creation of DNA and the many other areas that seem to be able to rule out chance or natural forces acting alone without a directing intelligence.

Sometimes atheists try to claim that over huge lengths of time these events, like the creation of DNA, could somehow come about but that is really a distortion of the doctrine of probability. To back up that last point consider here the words of Dr Émile Borel (1871-1956). This brilliant French mathematician, who authored more than 50 papers on the calculus of probability and “created the first effective theory of the measure of sets of points”, a Professor at Lille University in 1893, Professor of Mathematics at Paris 1909-1941, in 1925 Minister of Marine in the French government, and finally President of the Science Committee of UNESCO in 1948, sets out here the reality behind events with huge negative probabilities:
“The occurrence of any event where the chances are beyond one in ten followed by 50 zeros is an event which we can state with certainty will never happen, no matter how much time is allotted and no matter how many conceivable opportunities could exist for the event to take place.”
Viscount Ilya Prigogine (1917-2003), who inter alia in 1977 won the Nobel prize in Chemistry, sets out the reality behind these high probabilities when he said that:
“The statistical probability that organic structures, and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.”

Actually long before probability became a precise field of mathematics – the main figure here would be Pascal in early 17th century France – the issue of chance versus design was well known to philosophers and those that developed the field of Logic. For them it was a terrible logical fallacy to ever suppose that you could get order, structure or purposeful design from mere chance alone, and how right they were was proven once the science of probability took off. In any case its interesting to see how this chance versus design – or art, the ancients would call it – issue, and also the insight that design – and hence a designer – was the proper explanation for the Universe, was discussed by the great philosophers. Aristotle considered it and concluded that “as in intelligent action, so in nature,” Xenophon (Memorabilia IV 3) and Plato mention it (Phaedo 96 ff), and ascribe it to Socrates – who describes it at length –, and it was also a favourite of Cicero’s (De Natura Deorum II.5). Its mentioned by most of the big Christian philosophers, like St Augustine and St Boethius, and particularly by St John of Damascus (676-749). Cicero actually went into considerable detail on the subject, finding it absurd not to accept the presence of a divine hand in the universe, as he describes here:
“But if the structure of the world in all its parts is such that it could not have been better whether in point of utility or beauty, let us consider whether this is the result of chance, or whether on the contrary the parts of the world are in such a condition that they could not possibly have cohered together if they were not controlled by intelligence and by divine providence. If then the products of nature are better than those of art, and if art produces nothing without reason, nature too cannot be deemed to be without reason. When you see a statue or a painting, you recognize the exercise of art; when you observe from a distance the course of a ship, you do not hesitate to assume that its motion is guided by reason and by art; when you look at a sun-dial or a water-clock, you infer that it tells the time by art and not by chance; how then can it be consistent to suppose that the world, which includes both the works of art in question, the craftsmen who made them, and everything else besides, can be devoid of purpose and of reason? Suppose a traveller to carry into Scythia or Britain the orrery recently constructed by our friend Posidonius, which at each revolution reproduces the same motions of the sun, the moon and the five planets that take place in the heavens every twenty-four hours, would any single native doubt that this orrery was the work of a rational being? These thinkers however raise doubts about the world itself from which all things arise and have their being, and debate whether it is the product of chance or necessity of some sort, or of divine reason and intelligence; they think more highly of the achievement of Archimedes in making a model of the revolutions of the firmament than of that of nature in creating them, although the perfection of the original shows a craftsmanship many times as great as does the counterfeit.”
I will leave the last word on this to Professor Antony Flew, a philosopher who was the Richard Dawkins of his day until he was persuaded by the theist arguments, including with respect to DNA. When asked does he, Antony Flew, think that the new work on the origin of life points to a creative intelligence, he said at a public debate in New York in 2004:
“Yes, I now think it does...almost entirely because of the DNA investigations. What I think the DNA material has done is that it has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements to work together. It’s the enormous complexity of the number of elements and the enormous subtlety of the ways they work together. The meeting of these two parts at the right time by chance is simply minute. It is all a matter of the enormous complexity by which the results were achieved, which looked to me like the work of intelligence.”"
 

Wolf

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All day, every day on all sites.
Jimbo/Kangal the shitposter.
 

Fishalt

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lol.. They just love (the obedience of prone) 'agnostics' :)

I honestly think that's why atheists call themselves 'agnostic'


Wow! What did he look like, anything like Plunkett Dunning's avatar? 🤔
You see everything in terms of submission and dominance, James. Obsessed with 'winning', whatever that means in the context of this debacle. And as long as you have this mentality you will never have any form of peace. The question isn't whether they're right or wrong for doing this. The question is why you care about it all as vehemently as you do. It's immature. Here's the thing; I more or less agree with you that scholairebrocht ducks and dodges the questions you pose to him/her, and I can see why this is incredibly nettling to you. The difference between you and me, James, is that I understand that this person needs God. My understanding and compassion for this person's need outweighs my ego--that is, the need to prove him/her wrong. It is better, not worse, to not waken sleeping dogs when it comes to issues such as these.

I'm happy to engage with the religious when they query as to why I don't subscribe to any faith. Does the proselytizing become grating occasionally? Yeah, sure. But it's complicated. Sometimes it comes from a good place, sometimes it doesn't. There are Christians like Scolairebrocht who do it because they don't want to see people burn in hell. It's compassion--or at the least, it comes from a place of compassion. Then there are people like Tiger and Plunkett who do it to remind the unbelievers that they will burn, and seem to rejoice in this belief as though Hell--an entirely excessive punishment--is in way shape or form fair and reasonable. Or judicious. I am reasonably confident that they are more or less happy to believe that people--good people--will be sent into the flaming abyss for all eternity for the monstrous sin of refusing to believe what they do. Odd as it seems, I do think that somewhere at some time this started from a good place and became malevolent. They allowed their sadness at the lack of morality in the world to metamorphosize into hatred. Very probably they became jaded and warped by the cold indifference, shallowness and depersonalization of society over time. I don't even disagree with them. The quality of human beings the world produces as time goes on seems to get worse with every generation.

Regardless, I don't really judge people by their beliefs. I judge them by what's in their soul. There is more kindness and light in your average street crawler than there is in the average devil-driver.
 
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Fishalt

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Is that the difference between me and you, oh noble one, Fishalt? Could you explain this post (of mine) to me please -

Post in thread 'An Open Letter to Atheists' https://www.sarsfieldsvirtualpub.com/threads/an-open-letter-to-atheists.710/post-83624
You know, limited to that particular quote, there's admittedly only mild, but nonetheless meaningful clausal difference. Here, I made my case as to why I hold no particular faith;why I find the comparison between theology and science disingenuous., and how belief in a prime creator or the refusal to rule out the existence of one is very far removed from having a faith-based system of belief. I do go on to say that I can't rule out the existence of a prime mover, or creator, which is why quote-mining such as this isn't especially useful. Moreover, I'm not attempting to dissuade anyone from their faith and, as I have stated, I'm generally of the opinion that some people and perhaps the majority of them are better off with one than without.

Unlike yourself, creating, and engaging in theological arguments isn't the sine qua non of my time on this forum. Now before you blow a gasket, I understand that's not what you've done here, and you're by no means the only poster guilty of this. You're also by no means the worst, either.

However, you do in fact have (masqueraded as they are under some adjacent issue) entire threads apparently designed to spark them up. Or at least one of them. And no, I don't think you should have been suspended from posting there, which is yet another example of why Zip shouldn't be moderating. Regardless, I'm not especially interested in any of this. I might dip my toe in occasionally, but someone who gets tipsy once every three years is not the same thing as an alcoholic. We're talking a different order of magnitude. Obviously.

I am nonetheless very disappointed that you returned to posting on Islepoli to have a whinge about it all. That was not a good demonstration of character.
 

Fishalt

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Fishalt
So I am trying to speak to and persuade atheists, and hopefully show them that God exists. Sure there is a whole other conversation to say that Christianity is the true religion etc, but at least we can get to stage 1 here? Does that mean you are now a theist can I ask?

The fact that there are other options and theories does not mean that there is no true 'theory', so the fact that there are other religions doesn't invalidate anything as far as I can see.

Yes science is different to theology, but nonetheless it also has some similarities. I think if you study Natural Theology you can see that.
Ok. The problem with that is that Religions are not universalized, and are totally antithetical to one another in their behavioural demands, and what they require in terms of observance. It's not possible to fulfil all the conditions they impose concurrently without arriving at a place that is anything less than indescribably mad. The only way this makes sense is if a prime mover that is personally interested in the lives of individuals created a situation in which observance can be performed in more or less any way, under many names and titles, in accordance with specific cultural mores. Either this, or polytheism--otherwise the problem is irresolvable.
 

Fishalt

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You're one heck of a bullshitter, Fish.

You said -

The difference between you and me, James, is that I understand that this person needs God.

And then I provided a quote of mine -

You need a meaning for your life (and presumably a desire for eternality), you fill that meaning with God - no problem.

So what's the difference?

Secondly, it's already been established that I'm not trying to "dissuade people from their faith".

Really, what you're doing here, is trying to frame the debate from your own pompous mind and divorced from reality
You're one heck of a bullshitter, Fish.

You said -

The difference between you and me, James, is that I understand that this person needs God.

And then I provided a quote of mine -

You need a meaning for your life (and presumably a desire for eternality), you fill that meaning with God - no problem.

So what's the difference?

Secondly, it's already been established that I'm not trying to "dissuade people from their faith".

Really, what you're doing here, is trying to frame the debate from your own pompous mind and divorced from reality.

Apologies, when I clicked that link it sent me to the quote below it--my own. I read my post, not yours. If that's truly what you believe, then why do you continue to engage in theological debates and have an entire thread that is more or less devoted to instigating them?

Sorry James, I remain unconvinced. In my estimations, this is simply something you like to argue about for whatever reason. And I suspect that reason is because you're out to prove you are intellectually superior to others by fomenting what is quite frankly a soft battle that is easily won, which if I'm honest doesn't exactly scream 'I'm a successful, happy human being'. On the contrary. It reeks of insecurity.

I've no doubt you'll reply to this post in anger because you've more or less got this problem:

1710310623117.png


Prove me wrong by engaging in some introspection instead. Either for your own benefit, or to have another win.
 
Z

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Anyway by popular demand [not!], I thought I might post about one of the other proofs, or 'ways' of Aquinas:

I think that Aquinas's five proofs are basically irrefutable especially when taken altogether. The problem though is most atheism in the contemporary West comes down to issues around the "Problem of Evil" and so is not really dealt by them, directly at least.
 

scolairebocht

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Yes Zip there are a lot of other issues alright, but at least the basic fact that there must be a God is, as you say, establishable by these proofs if atheists were confident enough in their opinions to properly study them!
 

Tiger

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I'll go back to what I said before.

You said:


And that's where the argument fails, right away. It doesn't have to be a being. It could equally be some natural entity, force or pattern existing outside of and before our Universe.



By using the word "being", however, the argument is pre-loaded to give the answer you want.

Even then, it could very well be the wrong answer anyway. Humans are very good at imagining supernatural beings that are all seeing and all powerful. That we have had gods throughout our history suggests we are very good at imagining ideas and things that don't have the human limitations we have.

But the "being" could be something completely outside of our current ability to think or imagine, an "outside context entity" (in the same vein of an "outside context problem").

In short the 5 Ways come across as simplistic and limited, and reflective of the time they were created.
This is all absolute twaddle.

The authors proposal of events preceding a ‘Big Bang’ and the idea of a cyclical universe is a departure from established scientific principles. You should know that.

The complete lack of direct evidence, reliance on speculative interpretations of observable data ( i.e - making shit up), and a notable lack of transparency regarding data analysis methods undermine Penrose and Gurzadyan’s credibility.

Not unlike your own credibility.
 

Tiger

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The two perma unemployed people react to the post the second it’s posted. 👆👆👆

Get a job ya bums
 

Tiger

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Srsly, this is the same moron who because I (somewhat mockingly) replied to her continously asking me - what is the probability of ten to ten to the ten to the t..

I jokingly replied - 50-50, it either happens.. Or it don't.

And to this day, she's still banging on about it

That's your as educated as you can get, PhDs falling out of her ears, genius folks 🤣
James you should never underestimate your contribution to the dumbest answer ever given on this forum. You should be proud of it.
 

Tiger

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Yes I know you do, haven't I said that? You lick envelopes for the civil service. Nothing to be proud of, in my opinion
Ehhh, yeah the 1980’s have just phoned looking for their joke back.

Can you explain to everyone how you and Tank are able to spend almost 24 hours a day on this and other forums?
 

Wolf

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The two perma unemployed people react to the post the second it’s posted. 👆👆👆

Get a job ya bums

On and offline usually at the same time in the middle of the night......it's like having Charlottesweb and M1A2 back together, like the good old days on politicalirish.com. They/Them even pretend to disagree sometimes in the exact same way.:)
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Tiger

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Sci-fi is largely populated by atheists. It also has a major pedo problem, both in the author and fanboy sphere:

sci fi has a pedo problem

Speaking of promotors of science fiction; Richard Dawkins (a quasi religious-like leader of the atheist community) frequented Epstein’s island.
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Speaking of promotors of science fiction; Richard Dawkins (a quasi religious-like leader of the atheist community) frequented Epstein’s island.
A true dirt bird no doubt . Imaging promoting the man . Mad stuff
 

PlunkettsGhost

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We should conduct a survey of the world's national gombeen leaders. See if they are God fearing folk, or secular atheists. Might be insightful!
 

PlunkettsGhost

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Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten about all the Church sex abuse scandals. It's just a fact of life now, constantly in the background.

Indeed. Here is the diff tho: Church folk consider this a scandal and to be really bad. Atheism, on the other hand , is now telling us that pedophilia is a legit sexual orientation and to stop hating on it.

Lord knows, Dawson has no concerns over the degenerate opinions of his hero on this matter
 

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