- Joined
- Sep 11, 2021
- Messages
- 349
- Reaction score
- 432
In just debating this with friends they seem to be of the opinion that a proper Christian attitude is to be entirely welcoming towards migrants, and to be basically an open borders person on this question.
I think that all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, and any act that genuinely assists human beings, can store up credit for you in heaven. So yes certainly, acts of kindness towards incoming migrants can indeed fall into that category, it can be looked upon favorably by heaven. But there are obviously some caveats to this:
- If in helping migrants you are dis-helping natives, then obviously you cannot expect a net gain from heaven! Meaning obviously if I help a migrant to get a house, at the expense of an Irish person, or indeed evicted an Irish person to do that, then obviously I cannot call that kind of robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul scenario a Christian act?
But look around you, is it really the case that migrants are taking up spare, already vacant resources, like in housing, healthcare, education etc? No, these facilities are generally full in Ireland and if migrants are pouring in to access them they are generally pushing out the Irish to do so. It is an absolute fact, for example you can see twitter posts from a Sligo person whose uncle was unfortunately homeless for a while, couldn't access any accommodation, neither private nor state supported, even though he had some money, because its all full up with migrants. So he died a few days ago on the streets of Sligo, no doubt of hypothermia.
It is in fact a genuine reality that many Irish students already live in their cars because getting accommodation is so difficult in places like Dublin, so when the student accommodations are now full up with migrants, it is not a victimless crime.
- Is it always a Christian sentiment to talk up migrants, their difficult circumstances and potential good contribution to the new host country? Sure, that is generally the Christian outlook, as long as it doesn't veer into untruth.
But again, observe people who talk like that in modern Ireland, there is nearly always a sub text of disparagement against Irish people that follows it. Ireland in the past was 'pale and stale', white people are all colonialists, the homeless Irish who you talk about above are all winos and drug addicts and, the classic one, all Irish people who object to this immigration flow are racists. Again, how can you expect kuddos from heaven when you are in the same breath disparaging people and no, if you are Irish then self hatred is not a better type of hatred than any other. In the Christian outlook suicide is as much a murder as any other.
- Look at the Good Samaritan Parable and other references from the Bible, isn't it the Christian thing to especially reach out to migrants? In a way yes, and definitely we should at all times recognise the humanity in migrants, and treat them therefore with appropriate respect. But again there is more to it than this.
Firstly if the numbers coming in are of the order of 100s of thousands ever year in a country the size of Ireland, then the phrase 'invasion' better explains things than a stray migrant like the Good Samaritan. It has always been a Christian philosophy that countries can defend themselves from invasion, as for example God assisted the Israelites to do in the Bible, and in fact should do so.
The other point is the question of race. Think about this in the current scenario: If I, as an Irish person, look at an Irish homeless person, i.e. of Irish ethnicity, and I say that he has no better right to Irish services than a migrant just arrived, then I have abolished the concept of race. Race is sort of an extension of your family, as is nation, and seen to be so in Christian theology, but in this scenario its all gone? The fact that his race and your race are the same means nothing at all to you, or even the fact that he is an Irish person in Ireland?
Ok, so you say 'who cares', but what I would contend is that race, and its counterpart, the nation, is a blanket of protection that is God given and which you should not abolish. It protects people, you contributed to your society over all those years, you have friends and relations among your kith and kin, i.e. your race, so when you are down they will look after you like you looked after them, hopefully.
Again to bring this back to Christianity, picture God giving the promised land to the Israelites, as a race, and encouraging them to protect it from invasion. Even Our Lord's father goes to Bethlehem because he was of the House of David, it seems race has some importance in Christianity (while rejecting, of course, any nonsense about 'master races' etc.)? Here are a few thoughts on this, and the general Communist war on national identity, from Alexander Solzhenitsyn:
In any case these are just a few thoughts on the morality of this boiling issue in modern Ireland.
I think that all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, and any act that genuinely assists human beings, can store up credit for you in heaven. So yes certainly, acts of kindness towards incoming migrants can indeed fall into that category, it can be looked upon favorably by heaven. But there are obviously some caveats to this:
- If in helping migrants you are dis-helping natives, then obviously you cannot expect a net gain from heaven! Meaning obviously if I help a migrant to get a house, at the expense of an Irish person, or indeed evicted an Irish person to do that, then obviously I cannot call that kind of robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul scenario a Christian act?
But look around you, is it really the case that migrants are taking up spare, already vacant resources, like in housing, healthcare, education etc? No, these facilities are generally full in Ireland and if migrants are pouring in to access them they are generally pushing out the Irish to do so. It is an absolute fact, for example you can see twitter posts from a Sligo person whose uncle was unfortunately homeless for a while, couldn't access any accommodation, neither private nor state supported, even though he had some money, because its all full up with migrants. So he died a few days ago on the streets of Sligo, no doubt of hypothermia.
It is in fact a genuine reality that many Irish students already live in their cars because getting accommodation is so difficult in places like Dublin, so when the student accommodations are now full up with migrants, it is not a victimless crime.
- Is it always a Christian sentiment to talk up migrants, their difficult circumstances and potential good contribution to the new host country? Sure, that is generally the Christian outlook, as long as it doesn't veer into untruth.
But again, observe people who talk like that in modern Ireland, there is nearly always a sub text of disparagement against Irish people that follows it. Ireland in the past was 'pale and stale', white people are all colonialists, the homeless Irish who you talk about above are all winos and drug addicts and, the classic one, all Irish people who object to this immigration flow are racists. Again, how can you expect kuddos from heaven when you are in the same breath disparaging people and no, if you are Irish then self hatred is not a better type of hatred than any other. In the Christian outlook suicide is as much a murder as any other.
- Look at the Good Samaritan Parable and other references from the Bible, isn't it the Christian thing to especially reach out to migrants? In a way yes, and definitely we should at all times recognise the humanity in migrants, and treat them therefore with appropriate respect. But again there is more to it than this.
Firstly if the numbers coming in are of the order of 100s of thousands ever year in a country the size of Ireland, then the phrase 'invasion' better explains things than a stray migrant like the Good Samaritan. It has always been a Christian philosophy that countries can defend themselves from invasion, as for example God assisted the Israelites to do in the Bible, and in fact should do so.
The other point is the question of race. Think about this in the current scenario: If I, as an Irish person, look at an Irish homeless person, i.e. of Irish ethnicity, and I say that he has no better right to Irish services than a migrant just arrived, then I have abolished the concept of race. Race is sort of an extension of your family, as is nation, and seen to be so in Christian theology, but in this scenario its all gone? The fact that his race and your race are the same means nothing at all to you, or even the fact that he is an Irish person in Ireland?
Ok, so you say 'who cares', but what I would contend is that race, and its counterpart, the nation, is a blanket of protection that is God given and which you should not abolish. It protects people, you contributed to your society over all those years, you have friends and relations among your kith and kin, i.e. your race, so when you are down they will look after you like you looked after them, hopefully.
Again to bring this back to Christianity, picture God giving the promised land to the Israelites, as a race, and encouraging them to protect it from invasion. Even Our Lord's father goes to Bethlehem because he was of the House of David, it seems race has some importance in Christianity (while rejecting, of course, any nonsense about 'master races' etc.)? Here are a few thoughts on this, and the general Communist war on national identity, from Alexander Solzhenitsyn:
The Russian national character and sense of solidarity then broke down under this pressure, which left them more vulnerable in the gulags:"history was changed—there was none! And the understanding of what a Russian is was changed—there was no such thing! And what was most painful, we Russians ourselves willingly walked along this suicidal path. The period of the 20’s was considered the dawn of liberation…
I recall from my school days that even the word ‘Russian’, such as ‘I am a Russian’ sounded like a call to counter-revolution…But everywhere was heard and printed the term ‘Russopyati’.” [a curse word for ‘Russian’].
Based on these experiences Solzhenitsyn felt that nationalism is very important for everybody:“All nations in the Gulag crawled in order to survive and the lower to the ground they got, the better the chances of survival. But Russians in ‘their own Russian’ camps were the lowest order.”
So overall race is a God given protection for humanity, you don't throw the idea of the Irish race on the scrap heap by treating a recent immigrant exactly as you would treat an Irish person? All things been equal, if you are Irish you look upon another Irish person as someone you particularly need to look after and cherish, moreso than another race. To protect the idea of race is a good thing, a God given gift, so don't expect the Man above to be on your side if you are destroying it?“Before the camps, I regarded the existence of nationality as something that shouldn’t be noticed—nationality did not really exist, only humanity. But in the camps one learns: if you belong to a successful nation you are protected and you survive. If you are part of universal humanity – too bad for you.""
(Brian Nugent, Orwellian Ireland (Corstown, 2008), p.225.)
In any case these are just a few thoughts on the morality of this boiling issue in modern Ireland.
Last edited: