Origins Thread

[Professor]

Ok, fair enough as you honourable fellows suggest. So what's so different about sapiens? Say 10,000 years ago?

 

[Professor]

Right so, I've had illuminations and new ideas over dinner in regard to modern mans origins, worth sharing and testing.
So we arrive at a period long ago where early primitive man can be found, which according to wiki sources is 1.5 million years ago approx.

Any way dates and things aren't of such importance now, what is important is that we see various different humanoid creatures coming and going since way back then.

Now we must imagine a time when there were no modern sapiens around but that was about to change by virtue of Selective Breeding on a unique scale for what ever reason, so for example lets take an easy scenario which can explain what could have happened

To start with let's say that environment played a part and due to diet, location and habitat we find a group of early humans found an ideal location with ample food, wide variety of plants, fresh water and complex topography - or maybe it was an island where the tribe located but where ever it was the main thing is that they were safe from predators and diseases and consequently they lived long lives - like the hunza.

So we have this early tribe living in paradise with many village elders and because they are safe and well supplied then they have plenty of time to exploit their environment and learn . . .

They learn about breeding, they observe characteristics and they start to selectively breed themselves.

They discover yoga and start to stretch themselves out, they discover herbs which gives the brain a boost, they wear tight rings around their heads which changes the skull shape, while helping to expand their consciousness.
They become clever with the plants and animals in their region, they learn how to achieve better results by capitalising as a biped, after all they need to carry variety of tools while 'on the hoof'
Lips shape changes, muscle mass changes, foot size changes, neck length changes according to chosen design.

They become aware of their superiority and protect their group from the lesser humans but being in paradise they rarely see any other groups and so are free to concentrate on their own ideas which are so much more complex than the other early humans of the time.
circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, Breeding = Evolution you can measure - differences apparent!

 

[Professor]

Just to say there's a certain feeling of satisfaction which comes from seemingly imagining a theory over dinner, writing it down and the checking up on it later . . . Food is key, it's always been no.1 for lifeforms

History of agriculture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The thing is that those early humans who has time to think and reflect in a complex environment over a long life period would have been learning from all around them.
once longevity had been achieved for the group then language wasn't far behind or perhaps the language developed alongside stable longevity.
Once there was language then ideas could be expanded and developed by the group??

 

[Tiger]

Right so, I've had illuminations and new ideas over dinner in regard to modern mans origins, worth sharing and testing.
So we arrive at a period long ago where early primitive man can be found, which according to wiki sources is 1.5 million years ago approx.

Any way dates and things aren't of such importance now, what is important is that we see various different humanoid creatures coming and going since way back then.

Now we must imagine a time when there were no modern sapiens around but that was about to change by virtue of Selective Breeding on a unique scale for what ever reason, so for example lets take an easy scenario which can explain what could have happened

To start with let's say that environment played a part and due to diet, location and habitat we find a group of early humans found an ideal location with ample food, wide variety of plants, fresh water and complex topography - or maybe it was an island where the tribe located but where ever it was the main thing is that they were safe from predators and diseases and consequently they lived long lives - like the hunza.

So we have this early tribe living in paradise with many village elders and because they are safe and well supplied then they have plenty of time to exploit their environment and learn . . .

They learn about breeding, they observe characteristics and they start to selectively breed themselves.

They discover yoga and start to stretch themselves out, they discover herbs which gives the brain a boost, they wear tight rings around their heads which changes the skull shape, while helping to expand their consciousness.
They become clever with the plants and animals in their region, they learn how to achieve better results by capitalising as a biped, after all they need to carry variety of tools while 'on the hoof'
Lips shape changes, muscle mass changes, foot size changes, neck length changes according to chosen design.

They become aware of their superiority and protect their group from the lesser humans but being in paradise they rarely see any other groups and so are free to concentrate on their own ideas which are so much more complex than the other early humans of the time.
circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, Breeding = Evolution you can measure - differences apparent!

People can ‘imagine’ a lot of things professor, however backing them up with hard evidence is another matter. The vast majority of things that we were taught about evolution at school had no proper evidence. Something that hardly any adult today realises.

Let’s unpack your reply and see what is speculation and what is backed up by evidence.

Your post contains exclusively; speculation, unsupported claims, or hypothetical scenarios without hard evidence. Here's a breakdown of the speculative parts removed:

“Illuminations and new ideas over dinner”: Speculative.

“Dates and things aren't of such importance”: Subjective and speculative.

“Imagine a time when there were no modern sapiens around but that was about to change by virtue of Selective Breeding on a unique scale”: Speculative.

“Environment playing a part and a group of early humans finding an ideal location with ample food, etc.” Speculative.

“Village elders and safety from predators and diseases”: Speculative.

“Learning about breeding, observing characteristics, and selectively breeding themselves” Speculative.

“Discovering yoga, herbs that boost the brain, and wearing tight rings around heads”: Speculative.

“Changes in physical characteristics due to selective breeding”: Speculative.

“Being aware of their superiority and protecting their group from lesser humans”: Speculative.

“Rarely seeing other groups and concentrating on their own ideas”: Speculative.

Statements combining circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, and Breeding as measurable evolution: Speculative without specific evidence.

Which leaves us with…

 

[Tiger]

The live stream features Professor James Shapiro, a microbiologist at the University of Chicago, discussing his book "Evolution: A View from the 21st Century." Shapiro's work is a cornerstone of the Third Way of evolution, which challenges traditional views by emphasizing the dynamic and interactive processes within genomes. He shares insights from his friendship with Barbara McClintock, whose discoveries about mobile genetic elements and genomic plasticity have influenced his thinking. Shapiro explains natural genetic engineering, a concept where cells themselves cut and splice DNA, a process analogous to laboratory genetic engineering but occurring naturally within cells. This process involves various mechanisms such as viral integration, DNA replication, and repair, and is integral to understanding how genomes change and adapt.

Shapiro's revolutionary ideas argue against the randomness traditionally ascribed to genetic recombination and highlight the ability of cells to orchestrate significant genomic changes in response to environmental stimuli. He describes hybrid speciation, where mating between different species can trigger rapid genomic restructuring, leading to new species formation. Shapiro also critiques the reductionist view of genes, advocating for a systems perspective that sees genomes as databases utilized by cells. This shift in thinking affects various fields, including social sciences and health, urging a move away from simplistic genetic determinism towards an appreciation of complex, interactive networks that drive biological processes.


View: https://www.youtube.com/live/XzvYsLBNbjA

 

[Professor]

Statements combining circumstances, conditions, nutrients, resources, peculiarity, and Breeding as measurable evolution: Speculative without specific evidence.

Which leaves us with…

First to mention that you are doing a marvelous job with this thread and kudos to you for taking us into the seriously scientific areas of modern DNA analysis etc etc. Brilliant and Well Done.

My lighthearted post based on perhaps a vague recollection of msm articles and wiki pages, was an exercise in applying random characteristics from recent modern human societies and groups.

Generally the speculations you correctly observe above are based on actually what modern humans do - They live very selective lives from birth to grave and stick together - Birds of a feather flock together.

Look at the distinct differences in modern humans, Scandinavians, Spanish, Russians, Chinese, African, Asians and Jews for example and look carefully at how in some of those groups there are very different but not random unique characteristics attributed to the various tribes, it's easy to demonstrate say with Africans and how veeerrry different they are to each other.

There!!! They are all Modern Human(Homo Sapien) but all evolved quite differently due to . . . . Selective Breeding.
That is the initial preliminary Generalised Evidence I draw upon at the dinner Table

I'm not try to belittle or conflict with your Ideas on thread by any means - Am just trying a different approach to see where we land!?

Here, I found an Article with a similar perspective of sorts and will give it some time now to research it's ideas to see what's in it.
In fact it may well cover stuff you've already considered.
The Spanish refuge mentioned seems to be where I was getting at . . . .

We may now know what our common ancestor with Neanderthals looked like

A prehistoric human species that lived in Europe 1.2 million to 800,000 years ago is emerging as a contender to be our last common ancestor with Neanderthals

www.newscientist.com

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

View: https://x.com/Trad_West_Art/status/1805559108713537701

 

[Professor]

View: https://x.com/Trad_West_Art/status/1805559108713537701

"Another missing factor?" - Yes, it's Trees & Shrub's in the Diet. Perhaps it's something to do with baby caterpillars who are born on trees. They feed on the tender green foliage and go on to feed further on Tree sap - Some how the specific nutrients, hormones and amino acids from the tree become part of the caterpillar which would be of little surprise to us (when we think about it . . . )

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

"Another missing factor?" - Yes, it's Trees & Shrub's in the Diet. Perhaps it's something to do with baby caterpillars who are born on trees. They feed on the tender green foliage and go on to feed further on Tree sap - Some how the specific nutrients, hormones and amino acids from the tree become part of the caterpillar which would be of little surprise to us (when we think about it . . . )

The old phrase - 'you are what you eat' has been soundly debunked. It is quite the opposite. The body is designed to take in any and all form of nutrition and then turn it into itself.

Of course, a simple genetic test would be able to determine if there was genetic crossover from plant to animal.

 

[Professor]

The old phrase - 'you are what you eat' has been soundly debunked. It is quite the opposite. The body is designed to take in any and all form of nutrition and then turn it into itself.

Of course, a simple genetic test would be able to determine if there was genetic crossover from plant to animal.

There could be a problem with such a sweeping generalisation as you present above in relation to all life on earth, really.
Of course what you say is true on the face of it in regard to DNA studies, I accept that, OK, but . . .

(I've not done the proper research yet) In the case of Butterflies, we must remember that 1. - they are seen to have existed for over 40-50 million years and 2, - They are often born into the plant, they go through all stages of development on/in the specific plant and as adults they (some of them) continue to feed on the plants juices.
The plants is sort of their Lifesource/Mother-nurse and the specific plants are all it's made of and that process goes on for 3000-10,000+ plus how long extra??? years in the lives of a continuous lifeline of a specific same species.
I think we can show that diet and environment do play a significant role in influencing an organism's characteristics (some of them)?

 

[Tiger]

There could be a problem with such a sweeping generalisation as you present above in relation to all life on earth, really.
Of course what you say is true on the face of it in regard to DNA studies, I accept that, OK, but . . .

(I've not done the proper research yet) In the case of Butterflies, we must remember that 1. - they are seen to have existed for over 40-50 million years and 2, - They are often born into the plant, they go through all stages of development on/in the specific plant and as adults they (some of them) continue to feed on the plants juices.
The plants is sort of their Lifesource/Mother-nurse and the specific plants are all it's made of and that process goes on for 3000-10,000+ plus how long extra??? years in the lives of a continuous lifeline of a specific same species.
I think we can show that diet and environment do play a significant role in influencing an organism's characteristics (some of them)?

Professor, your argument seems to suggest that because butterflies and other insects have close relationships with plants, this somehow means they can develop plant-like characteristics merely through consumption and development on these plants. This is a misunderstanding of how traits are inherited and how biological processes work. Traits are primarily passed down through genetic information, not directly acquired through consumption or development on specific substrates.

It's true that many butterfly species lay their eggs on specific host plants, and the larvae (caterpillars) feed on these plants. This specialized relationship is an example of symbiotic co-existence, where both the plant and the insect have specific traits that facilitate this relationship. However, this does not mean that the butterflies take on plant-like characteristics as a result of their diet.

While diet and environment do influence the development and characteristics of organisms (a concept known as phenotypic plasticity), this influence is typically within the range of the organism's genetic potential. For example, a caterpillar's diet can affect its size, color, and growth rate, but it won't transform it into a plant-like organism. There is a genetic range which biological organisms can adapt which is limited.

 

[Tiger]

This is an interesting conversation between Piers and Stephen Meyer


View: https://youtu.be/ISUynYz93zY?feature=shared

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

Its too boring Tiger

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[Tiger]

Its too boring Tiger

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Myles, there is no nice way to say this, but you’re a low IQ drunk, very much like Jambo before you.

Both of ye are incapable of a coherent, scholarly conversation.

 

[Tiger]

Interesting interview on The Delingpod with John Mackay


View: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5857pu7dQS9O9ZWvrg2l3e?si=4EJ7xIIRRkWzzzLv5_ZFOA&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A7bdfnyRzzeQsAZQ6OT9e7G

 

[Tiger]

The Engineered Adaptability of the Humble Guppy - Andrew McDiarmid

The Engineered Adaptability of the Humble Guppy | Evolution News

When a scientist switches from an evolutionary lens to an engineering one, it may be the mother of all eureka moments.

evolutionnews.org

When a scientist switches from an evolutionary lens to an engineering one, it may be the mother of all eureka moments.

 

[PlunkettsGhost]

The Engineered Adaptability of the Humble Guppy - Andrew McDiarmid

The Engineered Adaptability of the Humble Guppy | Evolution News

When a scientist switches from an evolutionary lens to an engineering one, it may be the mother of all eureka moments.

evolutionnews.org

When a scientist switches from an evolutionary lens to an engineering one, it may be the mother of all eureka moments.

Dr. Reeves discusses her own eureka moment: “I had been so handicapped by not having some of those tool sets and not understanding design motifs that we know from engineering, like integral feedback or feed-forward loops…they could have been right before my eyes when I was studying the bacterial system and I would never have recognized it.”

 

[Tiger]

This remarkable behavior must be instinctual.
Instincts are algorithms.
Algorithms are instructions
Instructions are information
Information comes from a mind.

Ants in Florida perform life-saving surgery on their peers, scientists have discovered

Ants perform life saving operations — the only animal other than humans known to do so

Florida ants perform amputations and clean wounds to prevent the spread of infection, scientists discover.

www.livescience.com

 

[Tiger]

Charles Darwin allegedly solved the problem of the origin of species, but until today scientists cannot even agree what a species is.

What defines a species? Inside the fierce debate that's rocking biology to its core

The question of what defines a species has vexed scientists across the ages, particularly in conservation, where decisions require a firm understanding of biodiversity.

www.livescience.com

 

[Tiger]

The concept of inheritance extends beyond the transmission of DNA sequences from parent to offspring.

Epigenetics, the study of heritable changes in gene expression that don't alter the DNA code itself, plays a crucial role in shaping an organism's development and health.

This discovery challenges the tenets of neo-Darwinian inheritance.

Epigenetic Priming in the Male Germline: A Deep Dive

The concept of inheritance extends beyond the transmission of DNA sequences from parent to offspring. Epigenetics, the study of ...

neodarwinianreview.blogspot.com