The Gemma Thread.

[Fishalt]

But what you are now trying to do is second guess God, you know how He thinks and how He should react to situations? Logically wouldn't you need super human intelligence to knowledgeably work that one out?

He doesn't show himself because thats one of the tests, if He did it wouldn't be much of an exam.

Remember too souls live for eternity, your time on earth is a minuscule blip at the beginning. Some trial during that very short phrase which might make you a better person, could be repaid in spades for that eternity. Hence He might send trials for you on earth out of a sense of love, because He can see your eternal future.

Again, I ask you to account for the 7YO child living in an uncontacted Tribe in the Amazon. What contingency plan does God have in place for such a circumstance?

Do you not think Hell seems like a very extreme punishment, given the lack of available evidence for the existence of God? Why can't the non-believers simply cease to exist? Why must they be tormented in excruciating agony for all eternity? Again, does this sound like the actions of a loving God? This does not sound like love to me.

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

But what you are now trying to do is second guess God, you know how He thinks and how He should react to situations? Logically wouldn't you need super human intelligence to knowledgeably work that one out? He doesn't show himself because thats one of the tests, if He did it wouldn't be much of an exam. Remember too souls live for eternity, your time on earth is a minuscule blip at the beginning. Some trial during that very short phrase which might make you a better person, could be repaid in spades for that eternity. Hence He might send trials for you on earth out of a sense of love, because He can see your eternal future.

These are the ramblings of not a very well person.

 

[scolairebocht]

Well Fishalt what they usually say, or sometimes say anyway, in those situations is that the soul, if they live a good life, will live out their existence in Limbo. That is technically part of hell, but its not so bad, not continual torments or anything like that.

For example those good people that existed before Jesus - remember nobody gets to heaven except through Him - went to Limbo, including even the great Old Testament prophets. Thats why when Jesus died he went directly to hell, as recorded in the Creed for example. He went to Hell, to Limbo, to bring those prophets to heaven with him.

 

[scolairebocht]

I don't wish to be disrespectful Myles, but are you really well acquainted with Christian Doctrine? Many intellectual disciplines can seem daunting, or self contradictory even, until one has studied them properly.

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

I'm well enough acquainted Sir. But I really need not be if the Doctrine itself is nonsensical and easily taken apart.

 

[scolairebocht]

Oh right fair enough, I guess you have read lots of theological works for example.

But its true sometimes it can be confusing and requires a lot of study to figure out. But anyway if you did study it in depth you might find some of your questions answered. For example if you studied the Book of Job, and what the Magisterium says about it, you might not then be surprised at bad things happening to good people.

 

[Fishalt]

Well Fishalt what they usually say, or sometimes say anyway, in those situations is that the soul, if they live a good life, will live out their existence in Limbo. That is technically part of hell, but its not so bad, not continual torments or anything like that.

For example those good people that existed before Jesus - remember nobody gets to heaven except through Him - went to Limbo, including even the great Old Testament prophets. Thats why when Jesus died he went directly to hell, as recorded in the Creed for example. He went to Hell, to Limbo, to bring those prophets to heaven with him.

That's still quite bad though, isn't it? The way I understand Limbo is that it's a kind of period of penance. Reliving your worst moments over and over.
Hardly seems fair, Certainly doesn't seem like the work of a benign, loving God.

 

[scolairebocht]

No, I think you could be mixing it up with Purgatory. Purgatory is very much a penance, actually you suffer a lot there but become purged of the stain of sin eventually, and then you can get to heaven.

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

Oh right fair enough, I guess you have read lots of theological works for example. But its true sometimes it can be confusing and requires a lot of study to figure out. But anyway if you did study it in depth you might find some of your questions answered. For example if you studied the Book of Job, and what the Magisterium says about it, you might not then be surprised at bad things happening to good people.

I'm quite familiar with Jobe (that's the way I spell it ) and his sufferings Sir.

I also know that this "test" theory is an attempt by man to explain the madness of this World. Really its not that impressive an effort. Probably something you'd expect an adolescent with moderate intelligence to come up with. Aquinas-esque it ain't.

Haven't you got something a bit more meaty we can get our teeth into?

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

No, I think you could be mixing it up with Purgatory.

I too thought Limbo and Purgatory were the same thing.

 

[Declan]

What is the allegation, that this woman had two abortions???

 

[Professor]

You know Professor in the Catholic faith life on earth is a trial, a test, which if you pass it means you enter a paradise known as heaven. Catholicism does not preach any kind of paradise on earth, that good people go through difficulties on earth is entirely the way its supposed to be in the Catholic faith.

So many contexts to what you say, amazing! All due respect and from my basic perspective I see the original and early Christians certainly didn't get much opportunity to enjoy earthly paradise due to being persecuted by the Romans etc.
To believe and practice the faith was a trial, a test to survive and prosper amongst the other established religions of the day.
We are all civilised with equal rights these days but sure in the past there were holy wars to be fought and in other scenarios where Catholics were impoverished, and outlawed, the worst of times to be endured by the poor, from cradle to grave so for sure they needed and had something which kept them fearless and strong.

In the case of untimely death, the tragedy and trauma of a father/mother being killed in action was much reduced for them & family knowing that the deceased was now in good hands paradise where they would all meet again someday, which could have been be expected on the morrow back then, today too . . . .

 

[scolairebocht]

Yes but you can never presume that anybody got to heaven, except actual saints. We are told that prayers can make a difference though, for how long you spend in Purgatory anyway, in contrast a person going to hell is unfortunately beyond help then.

 

[Fishalt]

Yes but you can never presume that anybody got to heaven, except actual saints. We are told that prayers can make a difference though, for how long you spend in Purgatory anyway, in contrast a person going to hell is unfortunately beyond help then.

Do you think Siddhārtha Gautama (The Buddha) is in hell?

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

Yes but you can never presume that anybody got to heaven, except actual saints. We are told that prayers can make a difference though,.

Who told you that?

 

[scolairebocht]

Yes I believe Buddha is, and Mohammad and Luther.

 

[scolairebocht]

The whole idea of a funeral is to attract prayers, and a mass, the highest of prayers, to help the soul hopefully go to heaven. The prayers are all important.

 

[Fishalt]

Yes I believe Buddha is, and Mohammad and Luther.

Siddhārtha Gautama lived and died about 500 years before the birth of Christ.

 

[Myles O'Reilly]

This has gone downhill quite quickly since Ms Catherine gave Bocht that 'like'.

 

[scolairebocht]

I mean I think they are in hell.

 

[Fishalt]

I mean I think they are in hell.

The concept of Hell, as you currently understand it, did not exist during the time of the Buddha. Christianity did not exist during that time. Does God retroactively punish everybody in history who did not pledge fealty to him before he made his existence, and doctrine, known to the world?

 

[scolairebocht]

I am just trying to explain the Christian religion, because its surprising how little Irish people know about it.
The opening to heaven came about through Jesus, but I believe hell has always been there, since the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

[valamhic]

What is the allegation, that this woman had two abortions???

In that case Gemma should have said she had two abortions, she said she murdered two of her babies.

The question will be whether she did have two or even one abortion? If she did not then it is defamation simple.

If she did have abortions, the question will be whether Gemma's words made that clear. Either way if Gemma was
doing this she should have chosen her words carefully.

 

[valamhic]

I too thought Limbo and Purgatory were the same thing.

There are the same thing. Two horrors like Wolfe and Jambo.

 

[Wolf]

There are the same thing. Two horrors like Wolfe and Jambo.

Did you get your grants/blood money from the EU for the 10 acres of bog you were left this year?
Nationalist, my arshe, just another one sucking of the tits of Brussels!!!

 

[Tiger]

Again, I ask you to account for the 7YO child living in an uncontacted Tribe in the Amazon. What contingency plan does God have in place for such a circumstance?

The situation that you are describing here falls under what is known as ‘invincible ignorance’

Explainer here:

 

[Tiger]

Do you not think Hell seems like a very extreme punishment, given the lack of available evidence for the existence of God? Why can't the non-believers simply cease to exist? Why must they be tormented in excruciating agony for all eternity? Again, does this sound like the actions of a loving God? This does not sound like love to me.

The existence of Hell is perfectly logical when we consider natural justice. Like our prisons on earth, there must be a place to go for those who live perpetually against the rule of law or in the case of Hell in persistent rejection of God. There has to be some place for evil people to go.

Even on earth we get a sense of the punishment deserved for evil acts. Acts, which can only take a moment to commit, which however are deserving of someone spending the rest of their lives in prison.

God, being infinitely just and merciful, offers every person the opportunity for repentance and forgiveness during their earthly life. However if someone freely chooses to reject God and persist in a state of mortal sin until death, they have separated themselves from God’s Grace and choose to remain in that state for eternity. The permanence of Hell is the result of human choices rather than a punishment arbitrarily imposed by God.

Most people aren’t saints, so it also makes sense that those not deserving of Hell (but also who are not saints) have somewhere to go. So in Gods mercy, this is where purgatory comes in. A place where people are purified to be capable of deserving of eternity in Heaven.



In terms of suffering on earth, here’s a good talk by John Lennox. He points out that Jesus Himself showed us the purpose of suffering from his own death.

 

[Declan]

Abortion can be viewed as murder no different than a person getting charged with two murders if a pregnant woman is killed.

It is just a case of "lawfare" to shut people up.

Roll on the case and put the woman on the stand.

 

[Tiger]

Abortion can be viewed as murder no different than a person getting charged with two murders if a pregnant woman is killed.

It is just a case of "lawfare" to shut people up.

Roll on the case and put the woman on the stand.

Yup, it’s effectively ‘legal’ murder. However murder is an accurate word for it, as it’s the intentional ending of a living baby.

Any good legal team, could have the opposite legal team tied up in knots.

 

[Tiger]

Really?
The Jews didn't believe in heaven or hell, and they still don't. Nor did the early Christians.

This is wrong.

When the disciples (who were Jewish) asked Jesus (a Jew) how to pray, he taught them ‘The Lords Prayer’. The first line of that prayer is “Our Father who art in Heaven”.

On the cross, He also promised to take the thief on the cross with him into a paradise or heaven with him.

There was a belief in the afterlife in ancient Hebrew Scriptures. They believed the dead went to ‘Sheol’ which was a realm of the dead to await the Messiah.

Christ’s death on the cross released the souls in Sheol to be able to go to heaven. That why the Apostles creed speaks of Christ descending into Hell (to release them). There are 4 parts to Hell. As explained here

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

The Christian version of hell didn't even exist during the time of Paul.

I don't know exactly what you mean by the "Christian version of hell" but the you had the Book (s) of Enoch before St Paul within the Old Testament Church if you are going to dismiss indications of the doctrine in the Book of Isaiah ( Isaiah 33:10-16 for example) and the Book of Daniel but besides that the Zoroastrian doctrine of the Last Things is extremely similar to the Christian one and indeed a lot of secular criticial scholarship claims that the Essenes and the Pharisees got the concept of Heaven and Hell from the Iranians. Of course there is also the sectarian material that was found in the "Dead Sea Scrolls" at Qumran.

 

[Professor]

The whole idea of a funeral is to attract prayers, and a mass, the highest of prayers, to help the soul hopefully go to heaven. The prayers are all important.

Like the Jews, the early Christians believed in a physical resurrection of the body. The afterlife was very much experienced, physically, on this planet.

As I see it you've both substantiated my pagan beliefs to some extent with what's being suggested above.
Let me suggest that it's the children of the deceased who become the living soul and are the After(parents) Life(new and possibly everlasting so long as there is pro-creation).

The many prayers at the funeral are directed to the deceased, family, parish & God who will protect and cherish the new life to the highest possible degree (For the worthy who've earned their positions and assurances)

The deceased died happy after a life's work in the parish bore heavenly fruit which will live on - Everlasting, provided that . . . Gods helpers on earth will look after things, as is known they do when all concerned follow the word & ways of the Lord.

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

Who told you that?

In 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, Judas Maccabeus orders that sacrifices be offered in the Temple in Jerusalem for slain Jewish soldiers who had worn heathenish amulets ("good-luck charms" of some description). Now Prods, unlike Catholics, the Orthodox and the Ethiopians, etc do not accept that Book as part of the Sacred Canon but most do accept it as a historical record and so it demonstrates that certainly those in the Old Testament Church who believed in the Resurrection of the Dead (we are told the Sadduccess did not but we have no remaining stuff exclusively of them according to most scholars though there is an argument that the Books of Maccabees are from their camp) also believed in prayer for the dead- and of course Christ no where condemns prayer for the dead as an error in the Gospels.

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

Like the Jews, the early Christians believed in a physical resurrection of the body. The afterlife was very much experienced, physically, on this planet.

Christians still believe in the Ressurection of the Body.

 

[Tiger]

Christians still believe in the Ressurection of the Body.

Beat me to it.

 

[Tiger]

This interview about an NDE (near death experience) of a Buddhist who committed suicide and went to Hell is extremely interesting.

 

[Tiger]

Everyone's NDE is different. Many formerly religious people lose their faith after an NDE.

Yeah I went through a stage last year of listening to a ton of these. What’s clear is that there are genuine ones and ones where people have clearly made it up and are trying to sell books.

The majority of the evangelical American ones are spoofers. Amongst all the chancers, there is a small cohort that ring through.

 

[Tiger]

Spoofers?

What makes you say that? And are the ones whose experience conveniently happens to comport with your Catholic world view not "spoofers"?
.

Don’t get me wrong. There are people who are recorded as being clinically dead in hospitals that have had these experiences. People who have died in plane crashes etc… I think their experiences are genuine and fascinating to listen to.

However, as with anything space where people have an interest, you will always get spoofers trying to sell books and appear on all the cheesy morning shows. The afterlife can be a profitable arena.

 

[Zipporah's Flint]

Yeah I went through a stage last year of listening to a ton of these. What’s clear is that there are genuine ones and ones where people have clearly made it up and are trying to sell books.

The majority of the evangelical American ones are spoofers. Amongst all the chancers, there is a small cohort that ring through.

I think most of them are genuine- and that is the problem. It is people entering something akin to the dream state we all enter every night when alive. I don't think they offer any evidence as to core realities on the "other side" so to speak.

 

[Tiger]

Mark, the earliest canonical gospel, conveniently forgets to make any mention of "the lord's prayer". Makes you wonder if the authors of Matthew and Luke, writing decades later, added some "theological flourishes" to fit their evolving Jesus narrative.

Not really.

The Gospel of Matthew and Luke are only within a few decades of Jesus’s life. Suggesting it was clearly taught to his disciples during his earthly ministry. ‘Heaven’ doesn’t seem to be a controversial topic with anyone during this period.

Additionallly, early Christian tradition, as evidenced by the writings of the early Church Fathers and other early Christian documents, affirms the authenticity of the Lords Prayer as a teaching of Christ.