Origins Thread

Do you believe in evolution?


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AN2

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So now that we're done with the mousetrap guy, I thought I might have a go at another ID sproof, this time in my own words (Prof. Dave seems to trigger the f*ck out of them šŸ˜†)

I mean, ID is a bit like flat-earth, I'm learning as I go along but it goes something like this..

Genetic code is like [non-binary] computer code..

Wait, isn't computer code written by yoomans (a lot of it's probably written by AI nowadays but nonetheless)..

And aren't humans conscious/intelligent..

Et voila, intelligent design, it's God whatdunnit, evolution is a load of BOLLLLIX!

Is that about right, @Tiger? šŸ¤”
I believe this feller is the main proponent of the above sproof, Stephen C. Meyer -

n5pK6wtm_400x400.jpg


Somewhat of a Godfather of the pseudoscientific Christian ID movement.

One of the first things that strikes me about the sproof, is that hoomans don't code in binary
 

AN2

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I believe this feller is the main proponent of the above sproof, Stephen C. Meyer -

n5pK6wtm_400x400.jpg


Somewhat of a Godfather of the pseudoscientific Christian ID movement.

One of the first things that strikes me about the sproof, is that hoomans don't code in binary
So like, show this to the most proficient programmer in the world..

10010011011011

.. and it won't mean a goddamn fucking thing šŸ˜†
 

Tiger

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@AN2

James, it’s clear that you are utterly clueless on the subject of evolution. Quite frankly it’s getting boring responding to your childish comments. You have never contributed a single worthwhile post to this discussion.

You need to raise your game to earn any kind of response from me. It’s getting boring having a one sided discussion.

You’re assertion that the evolution of the bacterial flagellum is a settled matter reveals a profound ignorance of the subject at hand. If the question had been resolved, there would be no mystery surrounding it—and yet, the fact that you think it’s ā€œprovenā€ exposes the shallowness of your understanding.

The evolutionary origins of the flagellum remain one of the great unsolved puzzles in biology, and a Nobel Prize awaits anyone who can provide a coherent, evidence-backed explanation. Yet, more than a century after Darwin's theory was proposed, not a single scientist has come close to claiming that prize. On the contrary, the more investigations are conducted, the clearer it becomes that we may never solve the problem, and the gap between evolutionary theory and biological reality only widens.

Nicholas J. Matzke, openly admitted that his hypothesis is highly speculative and entirely devoid of experimental proof. It’s fantasy. His conjectures join the fruitless endeavors of others like Howard Ochman, Milton Saier, and Kenneth Miller, who have all attempted—and failed—to provide a coherent explanation for how the flagellum, a marvel of interdependent complexity, could arise through blind evolutionary processes. Matzke’s stepwise model, which proposes that the flagellum evolved from simpler systems such as the Type III Secretion System (T3SS), is riddled with logical flaws and circular reasoning. Indeed, evidence suggests the T3SS may have devolved from the flagellum, not preceded it, exposing the hypothesis as a house of cards.

Such intellectual maneuvering underscores the desperation of modern evolutionary biology to uphold its materialistic dogma, even in the face of insurmountable biological complexity.

The bacterial flagellum remains a devastating rebuke to the claims of Darwinian gradualism. This molecular machine—a rotary motor composed of dozens of interdependent parts—ceases to function with the removal of even a single component. Evolutionary theory demands stepwise functionality at every stage, yet no one, from Matzke to Miller, has produced a shred of evidence to show how an incomplete flagellum could serve any useful purpose, let alone survive natural selection. Decades of laboratory experiments and computational modeling have yielded nothing but speculation, while fossil evidence for molecular systems like this is nonexistent. As Michael J. Behe aptly observed, the flagellum epitomizes irreducible complexity: a system that defies materialist explanations and points instead to intelligent causation. The ongoing failure to provide a satisfactory evolutionary account is not just a scientific shortcoming—it is a philosophical indictment of the reductionist worldview that so often masquerades as science
 
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Hermit

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James, it’s clear that you are utterly clueless on the subject of evolution. Quite frankly it’s getting boring responding to your childish comments. You have never contributed a single worthwhile post to this discussion.

You need to raise your game to earn any kind of response from me. It’s getting boring having a one sided discussion.
This video popped up in my YouTube recommended feed recently:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fefJDYeUAx0
 

Tiger

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This video popped up in my YouTube recommended feed recently:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fefJDYeUAx0


Yes, ā€˜feeding pearls to swine’ is a very apt analogy for debating with James. Engaging with someone who has no interest in honest discourse reduces the exchange to a futile exercise, as their aim is disruption, not enlightenment.

Adding to the absurdity, James has recently claimed to have solved the puzzle of irreducible complexity (pure clown-world stuff) —something no scientist on Earth, despite decades of research, has achieved. This is the level of childish ignorance we’re dealing with: a man so blinded by his own ego and desperation to undermine genuine intellectual inquiry that he makes ludicrous, baseless proclamations. His contributions are unserious, and his own thread is an incoherent mess of nonsense, emblematic of his inability to engage meaningfully with complex subjects.

Silence often preserves the dignity of one’s arguments, avoiding entanglement in such worthless exchanges. Responding to bad actors like James merely validates their clownish performances and distracts from meaningful dialogue. Let him stew in his own irrelevance—it’s the most fitting response to his antics.

Ultimately, I think he's lonely and craves any kind of exchange as a distraction. He even reduces himself to posting stupid music videos just to get ā€˜clicks’. Daft, embarrassing stuff.
 
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AN2

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"James has recently claimed to have solved the puzzle of irreducible complexity (pure clown-world stuff) —something no scientist on Earth, despite decades of research, has achieved."

I know Tiger's posts are written in turgid, pompous language and contain almost zero substance but does anyone actually fall for his creationist lies? šŸ¤”

"Irreducible complexity" is not a thing, it's not a fact
 
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AN2

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Mel Gibson: God created humans 8,000 years ago

@Tiger: Truth bomb

šŸ˜‚
 

cƩline

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Without getting into the weeds regarding the lack of scientific evidence to support this view, your position reflects a common but deeply flawed attempt to reconcile two fundamentally opposed worldviews. Let me ask you: At what precise point in the evolutionary process does God, according to your belief, infuse the soul? Was it when an ape-like ancestor first walked upright? Or perhaps when they began to use rudimentary tools? And why would God reserve this gift of an immortal soul only for humans? Are other animals, which also exhibit intelligence and social behaviours, entirely excluded from this divine act?

To accept that we "evolved from primates" is to adopt a worldview in which man is merely an advanced animal shaped by random mutations and the pitiless forces of natural selection. Yes, we have animal bodies, however in such a schema, where is the space for the soul, which transcends materiality? Where is the room for free will, which defies deterministic processes? And where, one must ask, is the evidence—clear, observable, and sufficient—that such a blind and unguided process could produce not only the physical complexity of human beings but also the intangible realities of consciousness, morality, and the longing for transcendence? How can one assert, without verifiable proof, that this purposeless mechanism explains the very attributes that distinguish humanity from the rest of creation? Evolution leaves no room for these higher realities because it denies, a priori, the existence of anything beyond matter and energy.

You suggest that belief in God and the soul can coexist with this godless, reductionist theory. But this is a modern delusion, a compromise driven by the desire to placate the secular consensus rather than pursue truth. If man is simply a product of evolutionary chance, then the notion of divine intervention to ā€œinfuseā€ a soul at some arbitrary point is a theological absurdity. Such an act would make God complicit in a brutal process of death and suffering—a notion utterly alien to the God revealed in Sacred Scripture.

Can you clarify these broad details within the hybrid model that you postulate?
Animals probably have souls as well, but they have a different kind of soul, probably.
 

AN2

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@feudalist

Animals probably have souls as well, but they have a different kind of soul, probably.

Is there an animal heaven? šŸ¤”
 

Tiger

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Animals probably have souls as well, but they have a different kind of soul, probably.

Animals may have souls in the sense of life principles, but these souls are material and cease at death. Only humans have immortal souls, rational and spiritual.

Let me ask you this: In your framework, do you believe that modern humans come from two parents? What happened to the so-called ā€œpre-hominidsā€? Did they survive alongside humans, or are you suggesting that humanity arose from one pair of pre-hominid ancestors?

Genetic research reveals something worth noting: studies on mitochondrial DNA and the Y chromosome point to a bottleneck in human history, indicating all living humans descend from one woman (ā€œMitochondrial Eveā€) and one man (ā€œY-Chromosomal Adamā€). These findings are often wrapped in evolutionary language, but they echo the Church’s teaching that humanity comes from a single, divinely created pair.

This evidence casts doubt on the evolutionary story of gradual, diffuse origins and instead affirms the unity of the human family. How does your model account for this? Does it reconcile these genetic, historical, and theological threads? Have you considered the implications of tying it all together?
 

SwordOfStZip

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@feudalist

Animals probably have souls as well, but they have a different kind of soul, probably.

Is there an animal heaven? šŸ¤”

Humans have animal along with vegetable souls. We also though have a rational soul but it is a human spirit that makes us truly human.

There may will be.
 

AN2

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Humans have animal along with vegetable souls. We also though have a rational soul but it is a human spirit that makes us truly human.
R u talking about Doggy? šŸ¤”

There may well be.
Is it a seperate heaven? Why would God have us live amongst the other animals on Earth but segregate us in heaven? #speciest
 

cƩline

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The way I understand evolution to work is that occasionally there is an aberration within the genetics of an animal at birth & this aberration can be useful or not. We probably started out as Lovecraftian sea-creatures before evolving through primates in to humans but maybe I'm mistaken.
 
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Tiger

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How do you know that?

Myles, can you try to be clearer with your questions......are you asking how we know if we have souls or how do we know that animals and humans have different types of souls?

Myles, even the fact that you’re asking this question points to something beyond materialism. Asking how something as immaterial as consciousness could arise from mere atoms suggests that, deep down, you recognize the existence of something beyond the physical—the soul—which science cannot account for.

It is indeed illogical to suggest that the complexity of human consciousness—the ability to think, reason, reflect, and pursue truth—is merely the result of blind, random interactions of atoms. The notion that atoms could generate consciousness is a philosophical absurdity, a reduction of man to nothing more than a machine. Materialism has no answer for the rational soul that animates us, and any attempt to reduce thought to purely physical processes simply denies the obvious: that we, as human beings, are not the sum of our physical parts.

It is far more reasonable to conclude that our consciousness—the very ability to ask questions, ponder the eternal, and understand abstract concepts—points to something transcendent. If we were nothing more than atoms contemplating themselves, we would be no different from any other piece of matter, yet we are capable of intellectual, moral, and spiritual acts that no machine, however complex, can replicate. The very fact that we question and seek meaning beyond the physical world demonstrates that we are not bound to it.

To reduce this to atoms is to miss the essence of what it means to be human. It is to ignore the reality that we are beings of spirit and rationality, not just material processes. Materialism cannot account for the moral dimension of life, the existence of love, or the pursuit of truth beyond mere survival.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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You made a statement of fact:

Animals may have souls in the sense of life principles, but these souls are material and cease at death. Only humans have immortal souls, rational and spiritual.

There is no possible way you can know this. None whatsoever.

There's an incredible arrogance to hard-line religious folk.

When were the Dinosaurs knocking about Sir?
 

SwordOfStZip

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Dave doesn't even write the script for his videos, he gets "experts" to do that for him. His whole shtick is to act as smug, arrogant and condescending as possible whilst using every logical fallacy in the book, relying mostly upon ad hominem schoolyard level insults. His success on YouTube is all because of his anti flat earth videos, without which he'd be just another nobody. Dave is such a bell-end that even evolutionists and globe believers post comments on YouTube saying how much they hate him; some have even said that his attitude has caused them to reconsider their position. No surprise he took the Covid vaccine too and mocked anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists in the same way.

He just oozes creepiness of this particular effeminate smug type. You just find yourself without thinking it out assuming that he is some type of gross sexual deviant. I know I am being a total bitch here but given all that I find his youtube success to be very strange. Maybe like Jordan Peterson's there is something unorganic so to speak about it.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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I know I am being a total bitch here but given all that I find his youtube success to be very strange. Maybe like Jordan Peterson's there is something unorganic so to speak about it.
Miss did you see the cat fight between Candace Owens and Peterson's daughter 2 days ago on Piers Morgan?

The fallout was to do with Candace mocking her Da on social media saying he looked close to another nervous breakdown.
 

SwordOfStZip

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Miss did you see the cat fight between Candace Owens and Peterson's daughter 2 days ago on Piers Morgan?

The fallout was to do with Candace mocking her Da on social media saying he looked close to another nervous breakdown.

No I will have to look into that.

The Jordan Peterson phenomena and Anti-Pope Francis are two major signs that we are undergoing a severe Civilizational down turn. I find both incredibly depressing.
 

Tiger

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You made a statement of fact:



There is no possible way you can know this. None whatsoever.

There's an incredible arrogance to hard-line religious folk.

When were the Dinosaurs knocking about Sir?

Firstly, Myles it’s quite telling that your referencing of this post ignored the actual context—this was a response to someone (feudalist) who accepts both evolution and the existence of souls. Instead of addressing that nuanced position, you resort to lumping them in with your caricature of 'hard-line religious folk.' Such a dodge is either deliberate or betrays a lack of comprehension. I have zero interest in convincing you and your ilk that you have a soul.


Secondly, to claim ā€˜there is no possible way you can know this’ is, ironically, an act of dogmatic certainty—precisely what you accuse others of. The arrogance isn’t in recognising truths beyond materialism, like the origins of consciousness or humanity’s innate yearning for meaning; it’s in dismissing these possibilities outright, as if your worldview is the final arbiter of all knowledge.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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How can I have dogmatic certainty when I say I don't know whether these things are true or not.

Its you who insists you know the truth as to existence and the hereafter.

Such hubris from a mere mortal!
 

Tiger

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How can I have dogmatic certainty when I say I don't know whether these things are true or not.

Its you who insists you know the truth as to existence and the hereafter.

Such hubris from a mere mortal!
Your response contradicts itself. You claim to 'not know,' yet you assert with certainty that I cannot know either—an inherently dogmatic position disguised as humility.

A truly open mind would entertain the possibility that some truths about existence and the hereafter are knowable, even if they lie beyond your current understanding. Dismissing such possibilities as 'hubris' reflects not intellectual humility, but a refusal to engage with ideas that challenge your worldview.
 

Myles O'Reilly

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But you cannot know. How could you? Have you died and come back to life?

What gives you this special insight into life and death that alludes everyone else?
 

Tiger

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But you cannot know. How could you? Have you died and come back to life?

What gives you this special insight into life and death that alludes everyone else?

If you deny the existence of a soul, you are not only ignoring centuries of philosophical thought—from Plato and Descartes to Kant and Heidegger—but also disregarding the growing body of evidence from near-death experiences, as documented by scholars like Raymond Moody and Pim van Lommel, which suggests that consciousness persists beyond the physical brain and cannot be solely explained by material processes.

Reason is available to everyone, not just me. I have no control over whether or not others choose to engage with it. The idea of scientifically ā€˜proving’ the immortality of the soul, as though it were a measurable physical phenomenon, is a folly that demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of both reason and science. The immaterial cannot be measured in the same way as material substances, and expecting otherwise is the height of intellectual arrogance.

Have I personally died and returned? Of course not. But neither have you, and yet you presume to declare that no one can know.

There’s a long record of those who’ve had near-death experiences (NDEs)—from ancient accounts to contemporary studies—describing vivid and consistent encounters with realities beyond the material. As already mentioned, the work of figures like Dr. Raymond Moody, Dr. Pim van Lommel, and countless others documents these phenomena, offering compelling evidence that consciousness persists beyond physical death. While materialists brush off such accounts as hallucinations, they cannot explain their coherence, depth, or the profound transformations they bring about.

More importantly, your argument ignores the foundation of rational inquiry. Truth is not confined to personal experience; it’s discovered through reason, testimony, and evidence. To dismiss the possibility of knowing about life and death is less a sign of intellectual rigor and more an abdication of the responsibility to seek truth
 

Tiger

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What gives you this special insight into life and death that alludes everyone else?

Now, how about you try answering a few questions for a change.

Since you're so confident in your own insight, perhaps you can enlighten me: What is your explanation for the origin of the universe?

Where, in your view, did the cosmos—everything from the stars to the laws of physics—come from?

And, building on that, where did the first living cell arise from?

Given your certainty, surely you have an answer that doesn't rely on faith in undemonstrated, purely natural processes. Please, do share your insights.
 

AN2

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Now, how about you try answering a few questions for a change.
I never dodge a genuine question but you're scarcely known to ask one

Since you're so confident in your own insight, perhaps you can enlighten me: What is your explanation for the origin of the universe?
Where, in your view, did the cosmos—everything from the stars to the laws of physics—come from?
And, building on that, where did the first living cell arise from?

Given your certainty, surely you have an answer that doesn't rely on faith in undemonstrated, purely natural processes. Please, do share your insights.
The Big Bang theory is NOT a theory of how the universe came into existence, so of course it doesn’t answer your question. It is a theory of how the universe has evolved from the earliest point that our best physical theories make sense (which is pretty darn early, to be fair). It is similar to how the theory of evolution is not a theory of how life came into existence, but rather a theory of how life has evolved since it came into existence.

Put simply, literally nobody knows the answer to your questions because there is no answer at present. However, it’s worth nothing that pretending to have an answer without being able to provide sufficient evidence is worse than having no answer at all.


Source for original quotation:
Post in thread 'Origins (Censored) Thread' https://www.sarsfieldsvirtualpub.com/threads/origins-thread.639/post-125867
 

Tiger

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@AN2

In response to James’ post explaining that he has no answer to the origins of the universe or how the first living cell could have arisen….


Your reply is as revealing as it is evasive. Nobody asked for a lecture on what the Big Bang is or the definition of evolution. These deflections are a hallmark of those unwilling to confront the real issue: the first cause. Evolutionists, much like you, are always eager to quickly sidestep the foundational questions—what brought the universe into existence, and how did life arise from non-life?

Instead, you lean on ignorance as if it were a virtue, suggesting that having no answer is somehow superior to considering the possibility of an intelligent Creator. But let’s be clear: the universe’s fine-tuning and life’s intricate complexity demand an explanation. If naturalistic frameworks fail to provide one—and by your own admission, they do — then what is left, but to acknowledge the reasonable conclusion of design? Your refusal to address the first cause only underscores the intellectual weakness of your position.

Now let us imagine the moment what you think MUST have happened when non-living matter supposedly transitioned into the first living cell. First, a random confluence of chemicals must assemble into amino acids and nucleotides—the building blocks of proteins and RNA—under just the right conditions. These molecules must then spontaneously organize themselves into intricate chains with precise sequences, forming functional proteins and RNA capable of both self-replication and catalysis. Simultaneously, lipids must gather to create a stable, semi-permeable membrane to encapsulate these molecules, protecting them while allowing selective interaction with the environment. Then, these components must begin working together in a coordinated system—metabolising energy, copying genetic material, and repairing themselves. All of this MUST occur without external guidance in an environment filled with destructive forces such as UV radiation and chaotic molecular interactions. To believe such an event occurred by chance is not just improbable—it borders on probability far beyond the miraculous. The statistical likelihood of such a sequence of events unfolding unguided is so astronomically low that it makes any appeal to random chance a greater leap of faith than belief in a Creator.


View: https://youtu.be/oxxs_kFfS-s?feature=shared


This video clip above vividly illustrates the improbability of a single functional protein forming purely by chance. By using an extreme hypothetical—a slow-moving amoeba traversing the observable universe and transporting atoms one at a time—it emphasises the astronomical time scales and odds involved in random molecular assembly.

The analogy highlights the following key points:

1. Scale of Impossibility: The time required for a single protein to self-assemble, according to this hypothetical, vastly exceeds any conceivable physical or cosmological timeframe. This underscores the statistical unlikelihood of such an event occurring through unguided processes.

2. Improbable Precision: Proteins are not random assortments of amino acids. They must have specific sequences to function correctly. The odds of achieving even one such sequence without guidance are staggeringly low.

3. Time Beyond Comprehension: The amoeba's journey across the universe—and its task of transporting all atoms in the cosmos multiple times—serves to give a relatable yet mind-boggling visualisation of the timescales involved.

While the amoeba itself doesn’t represent a physical necessity in the process, it serves as a storytelling tool to convey the argument that the timescales for random protein formation are so vast that they exceed the lifetime of the universe many times over. This leads to the conclusion that chance alone is an insufficient explanation for the origin of life.

The underlying argument is clear: chance alone cannot account for the emergence of life’s building blocks. This points toward the necessity of a guiding intelligence or mechanism far beyond what naturalistic explanations can provide. It’s an elegant and strikingly powerful critique of the idea that life could emerge randomly from non-life. While James tries to brush these kinds of impossible events off as 50/50 in terms of chance ("They either happened or didn't happen") reality offers a very different outlook.
 

AN2

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Reply to @Tiger

In response to James’ post explaining that he has no answer to the origins of the universe or how the first living cell could have arisen….
lol What a spastic šŸ˜† Nobody knows

Not you, not I, nobody!

Your reply is as revealing as it is evasive. Nobody asked for a lecture on what the Big Bang is or the definition of evolution. These deflections are a hallmark of those unwilling to confront the real issue: the first cause. Evolutionists, much like you, are always eager to quickly sidestep the foundational questions—what brought the universe into existence, and how did life arise from non-life?

Instead, you lean on ignorance as if it were a virtue, suggesting that having no answer is somehow superior to considering the possibility of an intelligent Creator. But let’s be clear: the universe’s fine-tuning and life’s intricate complexity demand an explanation. If naturalistic frameworks fail to provide one—and by your own admission, they do — then what is left, but to acknowledge the reasonable conclusion of design? Your refusal to address the first cause only underscores the intellectual weakness of your position.
You simply fill the gap with your God for origin of the universe (not to be confused with Big Bang cosmology) and deny evolution (not be confused with abiogenesis) wrapped in pseudoscientific ID nonsense


Is this comedy? šŸ¤”

The underlying argument is clear: chance alone cannot account for the emergence of life’s building blocks. This points toward the necessity of a guiding intelligence or mechanism far beyond what naturalistic explanations can provide. It’s an elegant and strikingly powerful critique of the idea that life could emerge randomly from non-life.
While James tries to brush these kinds of impossible events off
Impossible because you say so, with your scary numbers 🤣

as 50/50 in terms of chance ("They either happened or didn't happen") reality offers a very different outlook.
Still peddling that lie I see

Gosh, is there anyone more dishonest than a creationist
 

Tiger

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@AN2

For anyone who would like to see cowardice in all its glory, check out James’ response to my post above on his shit show of a thread.

Congratulations James, you’ve constructed a straw man so poorly that even scarecrows are filing defamation lawsuits.

Ah, the refuge of the uninformed: ridicule wrapped in bravado. Your reply, though rich in sneers, is barren of substance. Let’s dissect this hasty display of intellectual laziness.

First, you declare with supreme confidence, ā€˜Nobody knows.’ An interesting confession. If true, what qualifies you to dismiss an explanation rooted in logic, mathematics, and observable reality? When faced with fine-tuning, the staggering improbability of unguided processes, and the intricate complexity of life, I propose a Designer. You, on the other hand, declare ignorance, then mock anyone bold enough to seek an answer. Is this what passes for intellectual honesty in your circles?

Second, your attempt to sever Big Bang cosmology, abiogenesis, and evolution into unrelated silos betrays either a profound misunderstanding or deliberate obfuscation. These topics are inextricably linked in any coherent narrative of origins. If the universe began, then why? If life arose, then how? To say ā€˜we don’t know’ and then scoff at anyone who challenges the dogma of materialism is not skepticism—it’s cowardice.

Finally, your disdain for statistical analysis as mere 'scary numbers' reveals the real problem: fear of confronting the implications. Numbers don’t lie, even if you refuse to listen. The odds of a functional protein assembling by chance are not ā€˜creationist propaganda’; they are a direct challenge to your cherished assumptions. If you can’t answer the question, at least have the decency to admit it without lashing out like a petulant child.

The dishonesty you decry lies not with creationists, but in the smug refusal to engage with evidence that disturbs your materialist worldview. So I ask: Do you have anything to offer beyond insults, or are you content to be a spectator in the realm of serious inquiry?
 

AN2

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Reply to @Tiger

lol Is this guy fucking handicapped or what

Second, your attempt to sever Big Bang cosmology, abiogenesis, and evolution into unrelated silos betrays either a profound misunderstanding or deliberate obfuscation. These topics are inextricably linked in any coherent narrative of origins. If the universe began, then why? If life arose, then how? To say ā€˜we don’t know’ and then scoff at anyone who challenges the dogma of materialism is not skepticism—it’s cowardice.
The Big Bang theory does not explain how the Universe came into existence, evolution does not explain abiogenesis, there is no "severing", other than in your pinhead

These things are unknown

If you want to say that you know, or you know someone who knows.. then just say it. Or quit your whining, you retarded c*nt
 

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